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Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by baq on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @08:55AM (#25136722)
the whole point of antitrust regulations is that

> Both Apple and Google are fully within their rights to charge whatever they want within their app store and enforce whatever capricious whims they like on apps that they distribute.

actually isn't always true - especially when it hurts consumers. of course it isn't up to us here to decide if it does. remember that private doesn't mean unregulated.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by zaroth on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:09AM (#25137559)
Just look at what Apple has accomplished in the meteoric rise of the iPhone. This is strong evidence of a company that is competing like hell to keep and grow its customers base.

“Hurting consumers” would be an almost Orwellian characterization of the smartphone technology revolution driven predominantly by the competition between Apple, Samsung, Google, Huawei, etc.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by whimsicalism on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:46AM (#25138054)
> a company that is competing like hell

The problem is when by "competing like hell", you compete so hard that you suppress your competition. The issue that anti-competition laws seek to redress is the suppression of other competition.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by zaroth on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:56AM (#25138237)
Except the competition isn’t suppressed, and there’s no actual monopoly here.

What we have is a pretty clear case of a minuscule minority of users bitterly complaining that a company isn’t making its products exactly the way they want them to.

A store is allowed to charge what it wants for its products. A store is allowed to set the policies that it wants for the goods that it sells in its own stores.

It just so happens that Apple’s customers absolutely love its products, and that Apple’s products are absolute technological leaders in their space.

Apple didn’t get there, e.g. like Facebook by buying up the competition any time it started to emerge as a threat. They got there through decades of focused development and investment.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by whimsicalism on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @11:06AM (#25138360)
> A store is allowed to charge what it wants for its products. A store is allowed to set the policies that it wants for the goods that it sells in its own stores.

A store is allowed to block you from using any other store? These aren't natural continuations or logical extensions of meatspace, stop pretending they are.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by zaroth on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @11:12AM (#25138449)
This is literally not what’s happening. The iPhone is their product. If you don’t want to use their products and their store you do not have to. Buy a different device. There are plenty.

Apple doesn’t get to tell Google, Samsung, Huawei, LG, OnePlus, Fairphone, etc. how to build their devices.

The one device they do get to decide how it works is the iPhone. Because they created it, they own it, and they get to decide its future.

Their device, their decision. The consumer gets to decide if they like it or not. Overwhelmingly, they decide that they do.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by stale2002 on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @01:41PM (#25140586)
> The iPhone is their product.

The same exact argument could be used regarding the desktop PC.

Do you think that microsoft could prevent competing web browser from being installed on the PC, if it choose to do so?

I think not. They would lose that anti-trust lawsuit.

> Because they created it, they own it, and they get to decide its future.

No, actually they dont get to decide that. If they are breaking anti-trust law, via anti-competitive behavior, then there are certain actions that they cannot do.

> The consumer gets to decide if they like it or not.

The consumers, or other companies, can also sue them for breaking anti-trust law, which Apple is required by law to follow.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by test001only on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @02:08PM (#25140973)
> Their device, their decision.

Once I buy an iPhone, I own it and it is my device.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by sjwright on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @04:12PM (#25142496)
Owning the atoms is less consequential than you infer. You don’t “own” the operating system software loaded on it, it’s only licensed to you.
Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by whimsicalism on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @11:59AM (#25139163)
You're making normative claims as if they are "the way things are."

Maybe the above is how you think things ought to be (I disagree), but anti-trust jurisprudence does not agree with your pseudo-libertarian worldview.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by zaroth on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @01:29PM (#25140419)
Maybe we can both at least agree the normative claims I’m making are true absent a monopoly finding.

Anti-trust only applies if there’s a finding that Apple is a monopoly. The jury, so to speak, is still out.

If Apple was found to be a monopoly, then there may need to be some restrictions placed on how they operate.

But I think controlling how your own product works is the presumed default, even if that product is wildly successful, as long as that success is through actual product merit, and not done deceptively or through illegal collusion.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by whimsicalism on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @01:37PM (#25140541)
> Anti-trust only applies if there’s a finding that Apple is a monopoly. The jury, so to speak, is still out.

Wrong again, you can violate anti-competition law without being a monopoly. You're correct that it hasn't been decided in a court of law.

I'm saying that I think they are engaging in anti-competitive behavior, you are saying "actually it is okay because they haven't been judged to engage in anti-competitive behavior in a court of law", which does not seem contrary to my claim, which is that I think they should be judged to engage in anti-competitive behavior.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by zaroth on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @01:45PM (#25140650)
That’s not what I’m saying.

The case law on this is not as definitive as you are claiming. I don’t think their behavior is illegally anti-competitive.

Sure, you can say that not supporting a specific 3rd party application (e.g. an App Store) on your device is “anti-competitive” but obviously not illegally so for any business.

Behavior which is totally legal can become illegal in a monopoly situation.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by whimsicalism on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @01:54PM (#25140771)
Dude, you're the one who said

> Their device, their decision. The consumer gets to decide if they like it or not.

and now you're telling me that the case law isn't definitive?

That's my whole point - you're making strong assertions as if they are the way the law works, when they are just your personal opinion on how things ought to work. Numerous decisions in the past have required companies to change how they do things on their devices. I'm not saying the case will be decided against Apple.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by zaroth on Thursday November 19, 2020 @12:21AM (#25146494)
It comes down to what you mean by anti-competitive. If you mean illegally anti-competitive then there’s a debate to be had. If you mean “anti-competitive” in the sense that they don’t offer their entire code base MIT licensed, then 100% they are anti-competitive in that sense, and they have every right to choose to be.

To somewhat oversimplify, you are allowed to not invite competitors to sell to your customers in your own backyard. Unless you are a monopoly. Because then that “backyard” isn’t rightfully yours to control.

At the moment I am inclined to believe the iPhone is Apple’s own backyard and they should have dominion over what happens there.

If you want to confiscate Apple’s backyard, you do it at the risk that you damage a company that has done a great service for the world, and a company that IMO deserves the benefit of controlling its own destiny and should be left to continue innovating on its own terms.

If someone thinks they can do better then there’s trillions of dollars in market cap on the line and I welcome them to try. Apple won’t stop them from trying, but will certainly compete fiercely on the merits.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by baq on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @11:00AM (#25138282)
replace 'apple' with 'standard oil', 'iphone' with 'kerosene' and '2020' with '1900'.
Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by indigochill on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:11AM (#25137579)
> of course it isn't up to us here to decide if it does

I also think it shouldn't be up to courts. It should be up to the consumers themselves. They generally seem quite happy with Apple and Google.

On the other hand, if there is a consumer need that is not being met by Google or Apple, it is a prime opportunity to disrupt the market with a new offering that fulfills that need. If Google or Apple stamp that out or have done so in the past, then I will agree it's an anti-competition issue.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by arrosenberg on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @02:11PM (#25141030)
The point is that Apple and Google have used their market power in other verticals (hardware, services) to lock all other competitors out of the mobile app distribution market. They are acting as private regulators of who can publish a mobile app, which is unacceptable if we still claim to support competitive, public markets.

How would a consumer even know if they were happy given the lack of options? Are they actually happy, or do they just have bigger issues to worry about? That's why we hire experts to act as regulators for new industries.

Re:Apple Announces App Store Small Business Program by whimsicalism on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @10:42AM (#25137996)
Well glad we live in a country with laws and not a pseudo-libertarian "all governance by consumer choice" world.

Regardless of what you think "should" happen, the reality is that you massively understated the scope of the applicable law.