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Re:SLS vs. Starship by bnralt on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:49AM (#25083451)
Perhaps the problem was deciding that the U.S. needed to have a super-heavy lift capability in the first place. A lot of the U.S. space program seems to be rather aimless, doing things because they seem cool rather than practical. We shouldn't really be surprised when situations like this occur.
Re:SLS vs. Starship by Nbox9 on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:12PM (#25085443)
I strongly disagree with this opinion. The US space program is incredibly practical, particularly in the last 3 decades.

* An unbelievable amount of scientific data about biology and microgravity comes from the ISS. To say this is “aimless” only is true if you believe humans will always live on Earth and only Earth.

* A wealth of fundamental knowledge about the universe comes from spaced based telescopes. These are helping us understand the laws of nature, some of the most raw R&D.

* There are significant military applications to our space program. These range from GPS, surveillance, communications, and potentially weapons. There are some government space launches that we know very little about their mission because it is highly classified. The Space Shuttle had a use case for rapid troop deployment. There is significant military applications to the engineering knowledge of rockets. The difference between a rocket and a missile is mostly the application.

* Our exploration of our solar system provides possible future avenue for economic development. There is more fresh water, raw minerals, and energy inside our solar system but outside of Earth than there is water, mineral wealth, and energy on Earth. Certain things we consume are non-renewable, and we will need to find sources for them outside of Earth.

* It gives hope, inspires young people to become engineers and scientists, and gives us a feeling of awe as we go through the process of understanding our existence in the context of the cosmos.

EDIT: This isn’t to say there is major bloat inside the space program, and that NASA is not in need of a significant culture change.

Re:SLS vs. Starship by ufmace on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:29PM (#25087079)
I mostly agree, but what in the world do you mean by "The Space Shuttle had a use case for rapid troop deployment"? I can't picture that being anything but the worst way imaginable to get like 2 or 3 guys somewhere.
Re:SLS vs. Starship by TeMPOraL on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:41PM (#25087216)
The key word here is likely rapid. Doing a suborbital hop is much faster than going through atmosphere, because you get to accelerate to much higher velocities. Even supersonic planes take forever to get anywhere, while a suborbital hop would let you get to any place on the planet in under 2 hours.
Re:SLS vs. Starship by khuey on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:51PM (#25087325)
There never was a space shuttle sitting around ready to launch on-demand though. A 2 hour travel time is irrelevant if it takes weeks to prep for the mission.

The space shuttle could also only land at a handful of runways on the planet.

Re:SLS vs. Starship by Already__Taken on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:55PM (#25087365)
And everyone on the planet would know you're doing it via national television or every inter-continental ballistic warning system?
Re:SLS vs. Starship by dnautics on Friday November 13, 2020 @07:29PM (#25089169)
I don't agree with the use case but to play devil's advocate, not every actor would be able to do something about it.
Re:SLS vs. Starship by Nbox9 on Friday November 13, 2020 @04:00PM (#25087428)
I’m having a hard time finding the source, but a mission requirement of the Space Shuttle was something along the lines of “Deploy a dozen marines to Moscow in less than 1 hour.”
Re:SLS vs. Starship by jasonwatkinspdx on Friday November 13, 2020 @05:46PM (#25088473)
Yeah, that's just mythology. The concept doesn't work out.

The shuttle did have a military requirement: the air force wanted to be able to launch into an orbit over the south pole, then up across Russia from the south, to return and land after that single orbit. That pretty much forced the use of wings that could glide, vs capsule style re-entry, and opened the path to most of the shuttle's design flaws.

As for why the air force wanted this, the presumption is surveillance, but I don't think they've ever officially answered, other than denying that they ever considered a bomber mission for the shuttle.

Re:SLS vs. Starship by m4rtink on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:42PM (#25090353)
IIRC the requirement was to be able to snatch a Soviet satellite & land wit it in less then one orbit. Here it is demonstrated in KSP (with a SSTO, not shuttle though): https://youtu.be/pFCQEgnKwdY

On the other hand Soviets were reportedly scared to death of shuttle starting on a "normal" mission only to use it's wings and heat shield to dip into the atmosphere and change it's inclination, so that the new orbit passes directly over Moscow, from an unexpected angle. Then it would drop a 20 ton worth of RVs with nukes in a decapitation strike without any warning.

It is estimated that this is one of the reasons why the Energie & Buran program were started - they also wanted part of the "fun".

Re:SLS vs. Starship by ufmace on Friday November 13, 2020 @05:44PM (#25088459)
Maybe somebody wrote a requirement about that once, but it doesn't sound very practical. I know they were dreaming up a lot of fanciful things when they were setting the requirements though.

I think the actual shuttle had a life support capability for like 7 people. Not sure of the actual flight crew requirement, there's probably room for like 3-4 other guys. It can land on a runway, but it's gotta be really long, and there's only one shot, and it'll be really obvious and has no ability to evade defenses. No chance of it landing in Moscow unless the Russians let it. And then you'd be in the middle of a huge military base or something, and what are 4 guys going to do except be killed or captured immediately.

Maybe they could get there in an hour. From a specific launch pad in Florida, and if the shuttle is all set up to launch, which takes months. And it'll be blindingly obvious to everyone in the world that something just launched heading straight at Moscow.

Re:SLS vs. Starship by anoncake on Saturday November 14, 2020 @08:34AM (#25092198)
You could put a crew module into the payload bay. Also the Shuttle's life support systems were designed for multi-day missions so they may have been able to handle a two hours flight with more people.
Re:SLS vs. Starship by usefulcat on Saturday November 14, 2020 @12:11AM (#25090453)
There were seven people aboard the Challenger.
Re:SLS vs. Starship by bnralt on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:18PM (#25086234)
> There are significant military applications to our space program.

It's interesting looking at the military and space, since the military seems to be more objective focused than NASA. Early on (1960's), the military was planning on a manned station (MOL), but ended up going with automated satellites in the end because they made more sense. Likewise the Space Force believes it might eventually send up astronauts, but doesn't think that will happen for decades. They're interested in sending people up when it's useful to do so, not just sending them up for the sake of sending them up.

Re:SLS vs. Starship by jiggawatts on Friday November 13, 2020 @06:18PM (#25088728)
Just to play devil's advocate for a bit: "space fans" excuse the wastefulness and obvious corruption of NASA.

"Microgravity research" is entirely pointless. A total waste of time. It's an excuse to stay on the ISS, that is all. There would have to be a thousand problems solved with fundamental human biology for us to live in microgravity, some of which are at the genetic level. Alternatively, and much more simply, we could use rotating space stations to simulate gravity. That requires just a few dozen engineering problems to be solved, none of which are fundamental. Admitting that the problem was "solved" in the 1960s would remove the excuse to keep sending people to the ISS, cut NASA's budget, and retrench a bunch of bureaucrats. So of course, NASA management is carefully ignoring the simple solution so that they can keep receiving funding for solving the difficult problems.

"Space telescopes" are fantastic! We need more of them! But NASA keeps blowing their budget on the aforementioned waste of time microgravity research they're doing on the ISS instead of the much more scientifically useful telescopes. Many have been cancelled or delayed. Remind me, where's the James Webb space telescope again? Oh yeah... on the ground, that's where.

"Military applications" are not a good thing. "Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed."

"Resources in space" is commonly trotted out, but first consider that your argument for the militarisation of space is directly contrary to an argument that space has resources. Military spending, as the quote above by Eisenhower points out, is wasting resources that could have gone towards productive uses. But even ignoring that, the problem with resources in space is the ludicrous cost of moving them to where we want to use them, which is here. Even if, say, we get costs down to $50 per pound of returned raw material, there's only a handful of metals that would make that worth the bother, none of which are abundant (or concentrated!) in sources outside the Earth.

My point is that all of these apologetics for space, or more accurately, for NASA's current approach are false.

We can spin space stations, there's no need for microgravity research.

There's no territory in space worth fighting over. No oil wells in the desert we need to bomb. Space doesn't need to be militarised.

There are no places outside the Earth where liquid water had concentrated minerals into worthwhile deposits. A trillion tons of gold is worthless if it's evenly spread out in a billion-trillion tons of rocky asteroids.

Nobody really wants to live in space. If you think that you do, I challenge you to move to a place much nicer than any place in the solar system for a year, like Bouvet Island. It's a barren island just off the coast of Antarctica. Live there for a year, come back and tell me you like it, or shut up about how it's the inevitable future the human race is yearning for.

PS: Meanwhile, SpaceX is doing all of the truly useful things that we need in space. We need a global satellite-based Internet service that isn't slow and expensive. That's astonishingly useful, right now, and isn't something NASA could ever deliver despite a much higher budget than SpaceX.

Re:SLS vs. Starship by paranoidrobot on Friday November 13, 2020 @07:58PM (#25089335)
> We can spin space stations, there's no need for microgravity research.

My understanding is that the problem with 'spin gravity' is that unless you are talking about enormous truly enormous space stations, then the human vestibular system becomes a major issue.

Plus, then there's the issue with ensuring that the station remains balanced, and the additional material strength requirements.

I don't think "spinning space stations" is quite as simple a solution.

Re:SLS vs. Starship by m4rtink on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:47PM (#25090375)
A "simple workaround is to have two masses connected by cables, that spin around a common barycenter. That way you can get good fake g at human safe RPM. And it reduces the balancing issues significantly.

While traversing between the two parts might be tricky, the craft could be divided into manned and unmanned part connected by cables, to reduce "traffic" between the two to a minimum.

Re:SLS vs. Starship by paranoidrobot on Sunday November 15, 2020 @01:40AM (#25098860)
IF it were such a simple work-around, you'd think that they'd have done it already.

I'm no space engineer, but even I can spot a huge number of problems with going with a cable-counterweight system.

Re:SLS vs. Starship by m4rtink on Sunday November 15, 2020 @08:52AM (#25101160)
They did:

https://www.nasa.gov/image-feature/sept-14-1966-gemini-xi-ar...

"On Sept. 14, 1966, the Gemini XI spacecraft is tethered to an Agena target vehicle. Gemini XI command pilot Charles "Pete" Conrad and pilot Dick Gordon are maneuvering their craft to keep the tether taut between the two. By firing their side thrusters to slowly rotate the combined spacecraft, they were able to use centrifugal force to generate about 0.00015 g of artificial gravity."

Why this is not being used now ? I guess because it was not seen as a priority for Apollo and followup (US) missions as they usually took just two weeks at a maximum. Health effects of microgravity have been also understood in more details & how they can be overcome for the short flight durations.

With the ISS & missions lasting half a year (and longer for some crews) artificial gravity would indeed be more useful, but hard to pull off for a big permanent installation like the ISS, that needs to maneuver to accept spacecraft while also providing reasonable microgravity environment for experiments.

Re:SLS vs. Starship by nickik on Friday November 13, 2020 @04:50PM (#25087929)
> The Space Shuttle had a use case for rapid troop deployment.

No it didn't. The DoD didn't even want it before it even flew.

Very little of the things you talk about has much to do with the NASA Human Directorate and that is the many part of NASA that people dislike, and this is not just from the outside, even inside NASA this is well known.

Watch the talks by Dan Rasky.

Re:SLS vs. Starship by BurningFrog on Friday November 13, 2020 @04:00PM (#25087424)
Yeah, I wonder how much of the real US space program is secret military projects.

Keeping much of it secret distorts the public impression of it, when we don't know of a substantial portion of the accomplishments.