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Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by Alex3917 on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:51AM (#25082774)
> I feel strongly like this law was pushed by people who want Uber to be a full-time job. It’s not.

Does the app give him the contact info for each of his passengers after every ride so that he can own the business relationship with them? If not then he's an employee, not an independent contractor. The number of hours worked per month is a complete red herring.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by AnthonyMouse on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:19AM (#25083123)
If a furniture company gives you a contract to build them some chairs, do they give you the contact info for each person who buys a chair from them? Why would that make the chair manufacturer an employee of the retailer?

Moreover, how is this not available to the driver? They're in the car with the passenger already. The driver and passenger could exchange contact info if they wanted to, how is Uber going to stop them? This doesn't happen not because Uber is preventing it but because the passenger is. The next time they need a ride they don't want to have to call five drivers to find one who is in the area and available, they want to open the app and have it find one for them.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by jhayward on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:52AM (#25084201)
The "furniture company" analogy is specious.

Uber doesn't claim to be a transportation company.

It claims to be a marketplace, putting transportation consumers in touch with providers. Except it "owns" the customer relationship and dictates many aspects of the provider activity and equipment.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by boomboomsubban on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:27AM (#25083220)
>If a furniture company gives you a contract to build them some chairs, do they give you the contact info for each person who buys a chair from them

No, you put your brand on the chairs and if the customer likes them they can buy from you again.

And I imagine Uber does forbid selling other services during rides. If not, I feel like Uber rides would be full of people pushing multi-level marketing.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by sokoloff on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:40AM (#25083361)
More than half of my Ubers in Las Vegas were pushing other services, handing out business cards for me to cut Uber out of the loop for the next ride, offering to take us to strip clubs for free, or something else.

If Uber wants to crack down on this, it's openly happening in Vegas.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by Jommi on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:42AM (#25083383)
Why are you even participating in conversation when you have not researched this at all? Uber doesn't forbid selling other services. Your point stands on flimsy sticks that are purely from your imagination.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by boomboomsubban on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:42AM (#25084062)
Uber has signed deals allowing their drivers to sell other products during trips, I still bet its banned and poorly enforced at least.

https://www.uber.com/newsroom/uber-cargo-teaming-raise-prote...

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by rkho on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:53PM (#25086618)
> I still bet

Full stop, this is when you cross the line into baseless speculation.

Unless you have solid objective facts, it's disingenuous to continue propping up an argument with meritless speculation.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by boomboomsubban on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:14PM (#25086917)
Objective fact, someone was willing to pay Uber for the right to sell to their customers. Uber seems to have some amount of control.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by AnthonyMouse on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:39AM (#25083358)
> No, you put your brand on the chairs and if the customer likes them they can buy from you again.

In what way is this different than putting your phone number inside your car where the passenger can take it down if they want it?

> And I imagine Uber does forbid selling other services during rides. If not, I feel like Uber rides would be full of people pushing multi-level marketing.

I can't actually find the Uber driver agreement on the internet, but pyramid schemes are illegal, and drivers who peddle scummy garbage to passengers are liable to get bad reviews, so there is no reason to expect that a lack of this would have to be because Uber prohibits it.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by boomboomsubban on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:52AM (#25084203)
>but pyramid schemes are illegal, and drivers who peddle scummy garbage to passengers are liable to get bad reviews, so there is no reason to expect that a lack of this would have to be because Uber prohibits it.

Multi-level marketing is still common, and often the payoff might be worth your rating getting tanked.

If nothing else, it seems like stories of this happening would be common. Even just "if you listen to my fifteen minute thing on timeshares, I'll pay for your ride."

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by syshum on Saturday November 14, 2020 @09:48AM (#25092575)
You might be able to put your brand on it, but there is nothing forbidding a company from contracting with another company to make a product and put their own house brand on it.

Happens all the time, see the equate brand at Walmart or the Kroger brand at Kroger

Sure those are larger scale but there is nothing stopping Acme Furniture from contacting with Joe Woodworker to make them some chairs branded Acme Furniture where the customer has no idea who Joe Woodworker is nor is Joe Woodworker an employee of Acme Furniture

This is not uncommon in the Services industry as well, hell Software development is full of Subcontracting where Company A will contract development to Company B who will hire Freelancer C to do the work, Company A may never know who Freelance C is, and to the extend they do they may not know the contractual relationship between Company B and freelance C (i.e are they an employee or a contractor)

This happens in alot of industries and has since the dawn of employment, Uber just has a different scale

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by JumpCrisscross on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:52AM (#25083495)
> you put your brand on the chairs and if the customer likes them they can buy from you again

When I go to a new city, I make note of great Uber drivers. I then hire them directly. Often, they become a porter of sorts. I pay them to drive but also e.g. for taking out laundry and recommending places of interest.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by Alex3917 on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:05AM (#25083650)
> I then hire them directly.

Which can get them kicked off the app, and leave them with tens of thousands of dollars in car loans that they have no way of repaying. That's what makes them employees and not independent contractors, the fact that they aren't allowed to do this.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by JumpCrisscross on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:10AM (#25083701)
> Which can get them kicked off the app

Can you cite a single example of this?

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by rkho on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:54PM (#25086647)
> and leave them with tens of thousands of dollars in car loans that they have no way of repaying

This assumes every single driver on the platform is a debtor of subprime auto loans.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by akiselev on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:43PM (#25085836)
The furniture company takes on all the risk when they buy inventory. Uber drivers provide a service
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by AlexTWithBeard on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:16PM (#25086215)
So they took the risk building an infrastructure. What's the difference?
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by dannyw on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:57AM (#25082862)
Should this binary classification, devised prior to this whole model of work was invented, still exist?

It's like not updating your horse carriage road laws to accommodate automobiles; because everything is either a pedestrian or a horse carriage. If there's no horse, a car isn't a vehicle; it's a pedestrian.

Makes no sense.

If you think Uber drives deserve more than 120% of min wage, then you can argue that, but I don't see why you have to argue employee vs IC.

P.S. Most Uber drivers, when independently polled, are for Prop 22. It's the unions that were pushing this, so they can collect union dues and grow their revenues.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by xtian on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:25AM (#25083196)
Your automobile analogy is actually extremely apt because when the car was invented and "jay drivers" (the original term) began killing hundreds of thousands of people, public consensus began to form around strictly limiting the speed of cars.

The auto industry successfully lobbied local legislatures and shifted public opinion through a massive marketing campaign in order to create the crime of "jaywalking". This is how our city streets went from shared spaces to the exclusive territory of drivers (much to the benefit of the auto industry).

Same thing is happening here. Perhaps a new class of labor does need to be created, but in a just world that would be happening on the terms of the workers, not the corporations.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by jblow on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:57PM (#25085993)
I have heard this story multiple times. But if it's true, then why are roads pretty much the same, as concerns walking vs driving, wherever you go in the world?

If things would have naturally been different if only it weren't for some lobbyists, how come things aren't that way at least somewhere?

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by xtian on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:25PM (#25087038)
Well roads do vary in their physical form and the social norms that govern their use in different parts of the world based on a lot of factors.

But I would say roads in developed areas are pretty much the same everywhere because cars are only made one way. The social consensus I mentioned was moving towards requiring a governor on cars that would shut their engines off if they exceeded 25 mph. If that had succeeded and endured, roads would look very different. But the economic effects that cars produce in accelerating the free flow of commodities, labor, and capital necessitated a rupture with the established order so that automobiles could continue to develop to be bigger, faster, and more powerful.

The similarities in road form and norms around the world represent an equilibrium between the current level of car technology and the amount of injury and death resulting from their use that society can metabolize.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by CryptoPunk on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:51AM (#25083482)
I too wish roads could somehow be shared spaces again.

But let's not fall into these simplistic black and white anti-establishment narratives. The automobile massively expanded personal liberty and employment options. Some of these effects were very pro-worker, like reducing the power of the dominant employers of localities, by letting workers more easily pull up stakes and find a new home in a different locality, or simply commute to a more distant employer.

No conversation about the impact of the car is complete without mentioning the benefits it provided to society.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by xtian on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:40AM (#25084040)
Labor market fluidity isn't pro-worker, it's an essential component of the commodification of labor. It simply means the shape of a person's life is more fully suborned to the demands of the market. It means competing on a national and often international market for wages. A workforce full of transplants is much less likely to organize and resist the agenda of capital than one with deep community roots and support structures.

In any case, I wasn't attempting to present a complete analysis of the societal effects of the automobile. I was only pointing out that this is another case of corporations explicitly dictating the terms of our society and using a massive outlay of cash to facilitate that and market it to us.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by CryptoPunk on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:02PM (#25085316)
You're once again framing a nuanced phenomenon in terms of a simplistic oppressor/oppressed narrative. The fluidity of labor does not imply the commodification of labor. It implies a wider market for it, which has benefits like increasing the liquidity accessible to those with labor to sell. This marketization of labor was partially responsible for wages increasing over 20 fold, in inflation adjusted terms, since 1820.

Increasing the market for a product/service provides greater than zero sum gains for society. For instance, creating a global market for fine art doesn't make fine art less valuable. It leads to more capital being deployed to the art market, because more people are able to acquire art that they personally appreciate.

Romantacizing the pre-market past, and taking for granted the accumulated gains brought about by non centrally planned, private-sector driven processes, is a mistake.

>>In any case, I wasn't attempting to present a complete analysis of the societal effects of the automobile.

You were definitely implying that the overall impact was negative, and that's what I was responding to.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by ric2b on Saturday November 14, 2020 @12:48PM (#25093979)
> This marketization of labor was partially responsible for wages increasing over 20 fold, in inflation adjusted terms, since 1820.

What's your evidence for this claim?

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by CryptoPunk on Monday November 16, 2020 @04:10AM (#25109681)
Market reforms, including expansions of contracting rights for employers and employees, have as a rule been followed by increases in per capita GDP and wages. The positive impact of a reduction in restrictions on the labor market, in favor of contract rights, has been widely observed and studied by economists.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by Gibbon1 on Monday November 16, 2020 @04:35AM (#25109836)
Course in the US wages have been stagnant for 40 years now.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by CryptoPunk on Monday November 16, 2020 @05:50AM (#25110283)
Wage growth has slowed, but hasn't ceased altogether. Statistics showing wages not growing or diverging from productivity are due to a misapplication of the inflation index:

https://www.brookings.edu/opinions/sources-of-real-wage-stag...

Anyway, the US has embarked on a massive social democracy course since 1965, so a slowdown in the rate of development is what you would expect.

[dead]
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by CryptoPunk on Monday November 16, 2020 @07:06AM (#25110685)
This is a well-established fact in Economics.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-is-driving-growth-...

Annual spending growth (inflation adjusted) on various components of social welfare spending (1972 - 2011):

>Pensions and retirement: 4.4%

>Healthcare: 5.7%

>Welfare: 4.1%

Annual economic growth over the time frame:

>2.7%

This is annual growth, over a course of 40 years, resulting a massive increase in social welfare spending as a percentage of GDP.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by xtian on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:52PM (#25087345)
I was implying that it doesn't really matter what the nature of the impact is if common people aren't the ones controlling the levers of power. I'm not romanticizing anything. I'm simply trying to draw attention to the nature of the power dynamics at play.

And I didn't say the fluidity of labor implied the commodification of labor. It's the complete opposite. The motive force of the capitalist system is the growth of capital. The commodification of labor is absolutely essential to that process.

If you want to talk about oversimplification let's talk about summing up the effects of globalization as "wages increasing 20 fold […] since 1820".

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by rtkwe on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:11AM (#25083041)
> P.S. Most Uber drivers, when independently polled, are for Prop 22. It's the unions that were pushing this, so they can collect union dues and grow their revenues.

I wonder if this would remain true if you weighted by the number of drives given, there certainly seems to be a distinction between part time and full time drivers. The former could be more numerous while Uber depends on the latter to provide the bulk of their supply.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by viscanti on Friday November 13, 2020 @12:44PM (#25085046)
Prop 22 allows for treating drivers differently based on how many hours per week they drive. Previously a gig economy company needed to decide how to classify their entire workforce (a single driver treated as an employee meant all need to be). It seems reasonable to be able to treat full time drivers like full time drivers and part time drivers like part time drivers. That's why CA voted for prop 22.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by boomboomsubban on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:33AM (#25083296)
>Most Uber drivers, when independently polled, are for Prop 22. It's the unions that were pushing this, so they can collect union dues and grow their revenues.

The $200 million being discussed feels relevant to this claim. Didn't some companies even spread their take to their "employees" through their job apps and other direct communication? I bet even the "blame the union" came from information those companies paid for.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by Permit on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:30AM (#25083257)
I was once hired as a contractor to help a web shop build websites for companies like Toyota. I didn't receive the contact information for Toyota so I could continue my business relationship with them independently.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by wolco2 on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:43PM (#25085827)
You were an employee of some org that had a contract with Toyota. Or a contractor for an org who had a contract with Toyota.

Whoever pays you is the entity you have a relation with.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by proc0 on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:13PM (#25086902)
We should let the market evolve on its own as long as no one is forcing someone else to do the job. How the hell is a lawmaker in charge of the definition of a job? Uber just wanted to define it for themselves. Someone else that hates that model can try and do something different, or run marketing ads against people becoming drivers if it's that dangerous.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by thekyle on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:24PM (#25085604)
Don't you think Uber giving out peoples contact information like that would be a gross violation of riders privacy? If the driver wants they can ask the rider for their contact info (although I would find that kinda creepy).
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by tyre on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:32PM (#25085704)
That's their point. It would be creepy because the rider is not actually contracting with the driver.

The driver is an employee of Uber, so it would be creepy for them to have your info. If they were someone you hired, that's not weird.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by wolco2 on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:02PM (#25086047)
Your relationship cannot be determined by this example.

You could be an employee or contractor for uber. In either case driving someone is a service you provide to Uber customers.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by Alex3917 on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:20PM (#25086259)
> In either case driving someone is a service you provide to Uber customers.

No. Look at https://arcade.city. Their drivers are independent business operators, because they own the relationship with the riders. Uber drivers not only don't own the relationship with riders, but they're forbidden from owning it, which is what makes them employees. It's literally against the terms of service for Uber drivers to act as independent business owners, despite the expensive PR campaigns they run for regulators and the general public.

The CEO of Uber was literally fired for getting caught on camera berating an employee who was complaining that Travis had lowered the amount of money he was earning after the employee had taken out a huge car loan. If this driver wasn't an employee, he would have been allowed to set his own prices, so that conversation never could have even happened.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by wolco2 on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:24PM (#25087019)
That could be a part of the contract between driver and uber. You cannot sell to our (uber) clients while offering a service for us.

The driver can set his/her own prices. When they decide which rideshare to use many use price to determine who they want to work for. If they decide Uber they get a scaling scale / surge pricing.

The driver doesn't set the customer price. They can only control the price Uber pays them.. some have asked for more and some have walked over it.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by ric2b on Saturday November 14, 2020 @12:52PM (#25094018)
> who was complaining that Travis had lowered the amount of money he was earning after the employee had taken out a huge car loan.

Buying a new car was not Uber's decision and he doesn't have to drive for Uber, he can drive for other companies with that same car and even during the same hours.

He can set his own price, and Uber can say no, that's too high, find someone else to sell your service to.