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Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by treeman79 on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:03AM (#25082195)
Got injured awhile back. Disability decided to play hardball.

Gig jobs are all that kept family off the street while I recovered.

Starting and stopping anytime as my body could tolerate. Or renting out rooms on Airbnb. Sometimes it took me 4 hours to change sheets and tidy up, but it made the difference.

Not saying their good companies. But gigs was crazy valuable to me.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by rectang on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:22AM (#25082406)
I drove for Lyft for a while while taking a break from software. Then I got t-boned by a red-light runner.

Fortunately no one was injured. I was on my way to pick up a passenger, but it was only me in the vehicle.

When I went to make my insurance claim to fix several thousand dollars worth of damage to my car, I discovered that despite having done a lot of research when trying to buy the right insurance with a rideshare rider and which was compatible with Lyft's own insurance, I wasn't covered. I had to eat the bill.

Fortunately, I was a software engineer moonlighting and I had savings to take care of it, rather than a typical Lyft driver living with far less cushion.

This sort of thing doesn't happen when you're an employee. The essence of the gig economy is doing away with hard-won labor protections and increasing profitability by offloading risk onto workers, creating the statistical certainty that a fraction of your workforce will experience circumstances far more tragic than mine.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by kemiller2002 on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:35AM (#25082548)
I think this is the key statement to all of this. No one thinks about the risk. Running a business, which in a sense you are doing by being a contractor, is all about managing risk. When I ran a food business, that was 90% of my tasks, and I had to make sure that things continued to run no matter what happened. When you start realizing how exposed you are to bad things happening, it starts to wear on you. What happens if an employee gets hurt, or the food is prepped wrong (and someone dies)? How much money is it going to cost and will it bankrupt you? Companies like Uber and Lyft don't explain that to people. They don't explain the risk they are taking on by earning a few extra dollars. Will most people be ok, sure? Bad things happen even to people who take all the precautions, and it is an expensive and extremely painful lesson to learn.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by Jommi on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:59AM (#25082894)
This is a terrible argument. If every single small thing that could happen to you was explained to you before you made any decision, I can guarantee you would never make any new decisions.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by kemiller2002 on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:19AM (#25083127)
No, a small thing is blowing a tire, or fixing an engine. Being sued for pain and suffering because an accident occurred that wasn't your fault, that's not small. Things like that literally ruin your life.

You can make the argument, "Well, they should know better, and if not it doesn't matter." I find that weak. The legal system is amazingly complex around business and fault during accidents. It's so complex, that there are attorneys that spend their entire career focusing on things like this. When dealing with insurance there is no, "Well it's ok, I'm insured." It's, "I'm insured if I can prove I didn't break any of the insurance contract rules," and the people on the other side, they're all better at this than you are. Most people who drive for Uber, etc. have no idea this is how it really is. The driving companies have pushed all this off to individuals, because they know the consequences of them getting involved, and this is why there needs to be laws surrounding things like this.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by Jommi on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:47AM (#25083439)
This really seems to be a common trend on these Uber discussions. Americans bringing up cracks in the terribly terribly faulty infrastructure/systems (such as the legal system or the healthcare system) and try to find a way to blame it on Uber/gigwork. It's quite incredible really.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by ShroudedNight on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:27PM (#25086342)
The American social contract delegated the role of filling those 'cracks' to the employment relationship. It might not be ideal, but it's not obvious to me why its any less legitimate than other arrangements.

Gig work is new, and doesn't fit cleanly into the existing framework. Uber et al.'s patch for reconciling gig-work appears to many to be essentially a wholesale rejection of the spirit of the agreement, thus opening up new existential risks for those of small means.

While those arguments may land short of the complete truth, they do appear to hold some merit; Maybe it's simply ignorance, but I'm not aware of Uber advocating for a comprehensive review of how California provides life-support benefits to residents in a way that ensures their service providers are not unduly at risk relative to the general population. Instead, proposition 22 appears to be as close to 'I've transacted profitably; fuck your life, it's not my problem.' as they could hope to achieve.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by kemiller2002 on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:04AM (#25083636)
No it's not that incredible. Workers have rights. That's been true for over 100 years. The fact that Uber is trying to skirt it, and they've been getting away with it is incredible.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by randompwd on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:35PM (#25086433)
The only failing of Uber(maybe the legal system) is that there's either no legal requirement to check the driver has the correct insurance before allowing them on the platform and that doesn't exist because there's no law that requires it of Uber(w.r.t OPs comment)

That's a a failing of your local/state/federal legislators not the company.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by apta on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:51AM (#25084181)
> I discovered that despite having done a lot of research when trying to buy the right insurance with a rideshare rider and which was compatible with Lyft's own insurance, I wasn't covered. I had to eat the bill.

So the problem was the insurance company, not the gig economy itself.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by Bryan22 on Friday November 20, 2020 @10:29AM (#25161352)
This is not how insurance works. The at-fault driver's insurance pays for damages. You're either leaving something out of this story or it is fabricated from whole cloth.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by kfarr on Friday November 13, 2020 @06:29PM (#25088799)
Motor vehicle driving with passengers is an extremely high liability occupation compared to most other jobs.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by s1artibartfast on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:49PM (#25087304)
However, This type of liability situation does happen when to sole proprietors running a business.

Making drivers employees isn’t the only solution. There are any number of profession that are required to have appropriate insurances

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by JamesBarney on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:00AM (#25082910)
If the law had been more narrowly tailored to making ride shares responsible for work accidents I think you'd see a lot more support for the law.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by diebeforei485 on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:06AM (#25082976)
I thought Prop 22 would require TNC's to cover drivers while on the way to pick up a passenger.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by yohannparis on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:08AM (#25082239)
The issue is not the gig economy but businesses that force rules and behaviours (when to work, which client, you cannot refuse jobs, etc.) without labour protection.

Either you are a platform that connects you to a potential client (like a powerful yellow page), or you are an employer.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by xeromal on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:39AM (#25083348)
I think we need more than an either/or. Not many employers in the US allow a person to set their own hours and locations.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by rectang on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:55AM (#25084244)
Divorcing health insurance from employment entirely would help a great deal.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by Jommi on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:59AM (#25082901)
And where does the line go?
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by yohannparis on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:09PM (#25086863)
Can you please elaborate, because, in the case of Uber/Lyft, it's simple, if you force when drivers go, they can't refuse clients, etc. Then you are not "just" a platform to connect driver and people looking for a ride. If you are imposing rules, other than local regulations, to the drivers, you are an employer, and you should follow labour law.

If you use Stripe API for examples, if you follow the law, and their T&C of services, they can't force you to sell to some clients, etc.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by Jommi on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:26PM (#25087042)
So if you do only one of those things are you still an employer or now a platform?
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by yohannparis on Monday November 16, 2020 @09:03AM (#25111705)
I'm still confused, because you are not giving any example or explanation for "one of those things".

As soon as you tell somebody how to make their money, outside of government regulations, you are in fact an employer.

Which is different from a contractual work where you can define requirements. In the case of Uber/Lyft (and other Gig economy for that matter) you do not sign a contract with each transaction you do with them.

Therefore, your contract with them, it's to pick up and drive users of the platform under terms set by the platform. This is obviously an employer - employee relationship.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by joejohnson on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:32AM (#25082518)
It’s an insane society that would force someone to work through their recovery to an injury in the first place.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by gowld on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:07AM (#25082984)
Why? I broke my leg. Why can't I work with my hands?
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by tor_anon_1 on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:45AM (#25084098)
you really don't see how weak this counterpoint is? e.g. if you break your hands what exactly are you going to do with your legs?
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by viscanti on Friday November 13, 2020 @12:54PM (#25085177)
> if you break your hands what exactly are you going to do with your legs?

Buy a two person bike and be the pedal power for a bike courier?

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by bloodorange on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:42PM (#25085817)
Wear a board on your front and back, with a message about worker protections, universal healthcare and walk around town spreading that message and hope it has an effect.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by tor_anon_1 on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:51PM (#25086596)
is this supposed to be facetious? because my point is exactly that there is nothing to do other than that and that to pretend that you can "elbow grease" and "work ethic" your way out of debilitating injury is just asinine.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by bloodorange on Friday November 13, 2020 @04:15PM (#25087592)
Indeed, my post was in agreement with you.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by piva00 on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:37AM (#25082576)
Gig companies shouldn't take the place of a functioning welfare in a rich society, I'm glad it helped you individually but it's symptom of a much larger issue that when patched that way just hides it away into the future...
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by treeman79 on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:09AM (#25083027)
In a welfare society I would still have to convince someone I couldn’t work. Get approval, etc.

Healthcare industry is currently a mess. I have excellent coverage. Even still I couldn’t get anyone to take me seriously.

Only when organ failure started up in earnest did doctors realize I wasn’t making it up.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by SN76477 on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:44AM (#25082673)
I did doordash Grubhub Ubereats etc for about a year while I had no income. It was a lot of hours, barely paid the bills(Single income, with child household), did madness on my vehicle. It was good because it was all I had but I wouldn't want to go back to that.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by tor_anon_1 on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:19AM (#25082363)
"thank God for these benevolent companies that lobby against universal healthcare and labor unions, so they can then be there for us when we don't have healthcare or union protection"

Put another way:

"Thank God purdue pharma is now manufacturing the cure[1] for the opioid epidemic that purdue pharma started"

1. https://apnews.com/article/6751b84767e8a1ebbaea6cb628ac2a11

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by wavepruner on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:26AM (#25082452)
As a disabled person who has also benefitted immensely from Uber, I hear this a lot, and it is really frustrating.

No one will help me, especially progressive leaning people. You don't get political or social brownie points for helping disabled people the way you would for other minority groups who are struggling. We are constantly ignored and forgotten.

I was in a situation where I needed money for healthcare that will never be covered by insurance, especially government sponsored universal insurance (EDIT: it will be covered eventually, maybe in 10 years). Gig jobs played a key role in my ability to purchase that healthcare and survive.

Regular employers will never hire me. Unions will never let me join them, because I can't meet their requirements and make life harder for their able bodied employees. Gig work is the only option.

Healthy people aren't nearly as caring as they'd like to believe, especially progressives.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by wildrhythms on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:39AM (#25082609)
>I was in a situation where I needed money for healthcare

By your account, the problem is a for-profit healthcare system. Gig work might have helped you purchase a highly inflated healthcare plan, but it doesn't address the underlying issue: that people shouldn't be forced into that situation in the first place.

You mentioned you are disabled, did you not qualify for disability insurance/SSI?

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by wavepruner on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:43AM (#25082661)
I did not purchase a health care plan with the money. I purchased effective treatments. To be frank, the healthcare system is worse than useless for many when it comes to debilitating chronic illness.

I do qualify for disability, but I can't afford the legal fees to convince a judge. My illness is very controversial and would require paying a very expensive doctor to support my case. It's cheaper for me to just pay for healthcare out of pocket. Fortunately my condition is reversible.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by tor_anon_1 on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:45AM (#25082679)
>I did not purchase a health care plan with the money. I purchased effective treatments.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19850269

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by wavepruner on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:50AM (#25082749)
This post is outdated. I now use emeramide.

Edit: emeramide is currently in phase 2 clinical trials for FDA approval.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by oftenwrong on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:42AM (#25082636)
Why "especially progressives"? Surely people who advocate for your healthcare to be free, and for universal worker protections are doing more to help you than others? Gig work is a poor replacement for a proper "safety net". Imagine how fucked you would be if you were not able to do that gig work. Universal healthcare would have you covered.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by blix on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:02AM (#25082936)
For people with 'untreatable' or 'psychogenic' chronic illnesses, universal healthcare would just mean a different institution denies your claim for treatment.

Progressives, especially in 2020, don't look kindly on people who lack faith in medical institutions. A lot of people with chronic illness have found themselves in this category after being failed by these institutions.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by mike00632 on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:39PM (#25090118)
The 'anti-progressive' viewpoint is about people using their varied abilities in the free market to make it themselves. It assumes that everyone is at least a little abled in something and that something is enough to pay the bills. It's pure ideology. The reality is that if you are injured and suddenly can't do you're job then you likely have 0 bread-winning ability until you learn a new skill or set yourself up in a new career if that is even possible.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by blix on Saturday November 14, 2020 @01:11PM (#25094207)
I don't see the relevance of this comment. If you can't get approval from the authorities for your disability, then you end up in the same place. One path just involves more paperwork, paternalism, and shame.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that there are more ideologies out there than just 'progressive' and 'anti-progressive'.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by wavepruner on Saturday November 14, 2020 @11:48AM (#25093451)
Yea, starting your own business is the only option for a lot of disabled people.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by wavepruner on Saturday November 14, 2020 @11:46AM (#25093435)
You don't believe I'm sick so you won't provide me healthcare. Progressives even managed to convince my own family I was crazy.

What you did to me is evil.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by esrauch on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:32AM (#25082516)
I'm confused by the "needed money for healthcare that would never be covered by universal insurance", are you sure such costs wouldn't be covered by NHS or similar had you lived in another country?
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by wavepruner on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:37AM (#25082571)
No, the treatments I need are experimental, and there is a tremendous amount of hostility from healthcare workers directed at people with my illness. It is very controversial.

Europeans are just as fucked as Americans when they have this illness.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by treeman79 on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:59AM (#25082897)
Simple migraines fall into this category.

Umm I can’t see, walk straight, or think normally 4-5 days a weeks. Disability, your faking it. Doctor, it can’t possibly be that bad, your lying.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by yadco on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:37AM (#25082579)
The NHS has very long waiting list.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by moduspol on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:42AM (#25082648)
I imagine it was also good for your mental state of well-being. You didn't have to sign up for a handout or even get a "goodwill" job like a greeter or something at a big box store.

Uber and Airbnb didn't have to take a loss to employ you. You got paid because you provided value to people willing to pay for it, just like the rest of us.

That's not to say we don't need social safety nets, or that it'd work for any disability (obviously). But there is something to be said when it becomes outlawed "for your own good."

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by rideontime on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:47AM (#25082706)
> Uber and Airbnb didn't have to take a loss to employ you.

Oh really? Has Uber turned a profit yet?

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by moduspol on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:58AM (#25082881)
Putting aside that clearly my point was that no special treatment was given to him as a result of his disability:

Just because the business as a whole is not turning a profit does not mean the business loses money with each and every action it takes.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by Jommi on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:57AM (#25082860)
Yes. Their ridehailing unit makes profit every quarter.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by wavepruner on Saturday November 14, 2020 @11:49AM (#25093464)
Very true.

Social safety nets only work for people who are believed to be oppressed. So what happens is the oppressed groups just end up being the people no one believes are actually suffering.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by treeman79 on Friday November 13, 2020 @10:23AM (#25083168)
Truth. Asked to work from home as a couldn’t handle commute. Ultra left managers did nothing but guilt trip me the entire time. Bunch of hypocrites.
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by tor_anon_1 on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:37AM (#25082567)
>No one will help me, especially progressive leaning people. You don't get political or social brownie points for helping disabled people the way you would for other minority groups who are struggling. We are constantly ignored and forgotten.

I have no idea what this is about but there was very strong activist push to get the ADA in 1990 and similarly the ACA in 2011 but I guess that doesn't count

> I was in a situation where I needed money for healthcare that will never be covered by insurance, especially government sponsored universal insurance

No clue what this means or how you could possibly even know that.

>You healthy people aren't nearly as caring as you'd like to believe.

Bold of you to assume that I'm healthy and don't have a vested interest in universal healthcare getting passed

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by wavepruner on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:39AM (#25082607)
The ADA is a disaster for many disabled people. It has created a tremendous amount of hostility and misunderstanding.

"No clue what this means or how you could possibly even know that."

I know this because I have the illness and have been to 40 doctors who all denied me healthcare based on this fact.

"Bold of you to assume that I'm healthy and don't have a vested interest in universal healthcare getting passed"

I edited my post to remove the "you" part so as to not make that assumption. Apologies.

Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by _alex_ on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:42AM (#25082640)
uber, lyft, and airbnb are not the reason our healthcare system is a mess. There is a lot of bad you can lay at their feet, but this isn't one of them
Re:Gig economy companies spent more than $200M to bankroll P... by tor_anon_1 on Friday November 13, 2020 @09:48AM (#25082728)
labor rights and healthcare rights are inextricably linked because if there were universal healthcare, labor unions would have more leverage and vice versa (if labor unions were stronger, universal healthcare would be more likely to pass)

https://www.laborforsinglepayer.org/