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Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by austincheney on Monday November 09, 2020 @08:55PM (#25042098)
At the famous Battle of Agincourt peasants slaughtered thousands of knights. It was a decisive blood bath against a vastly superior force that allowed Henry V’s conquest of France. This is confirmed by eye witness records both French and English.
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by smogcutter on Monday November 09, 2020 @10:09PM (#25042490)
Ehhh yes, but this gets complicated and interesting in the details. Have you read Keegan on Agincourt? Short story, the popular version of French knights getting bogged down in the mud and shot to pieces with arrows is mostly false, but the English peasants did play a critical role.

Far from being mowed down by longbowmen (although they absolutely would have taken a toll, especially on horses), the French cavalry was turned back by the stakes the archers planted in their positions. The stakes were likely mingled with the archers in a kind of thicket, rather than the fence you see in movies or video games, preventing the french knights from seeing the danger until the archers fell back and it was too late.

The French second wave, armored foot, was essentially invulnerable to arrows. But the French piled into dense columns to attack the English men-at-arms (they had no interest in fighting peasant archers, there’s no glory or loot in it). So the front of the column is in big trouble and is being pushed into the English spears by the men behind them, and those in the rear have no idea what’s happening up front so they keep pushing forward. This is how people die at rock concerts or on black friday.

Mostly out of ammo at this point, the English archers come out to gang up on stragglers at the edges of the columns. This is the “flank attack” that eye witnesses report. The peasants certainly didn’t charge the flanks of the columns en masse, they would have been slaughtered. But they could definitely pick off those who tried to escape the press out the sides. Without an escape route, the French columns turn into a panicked rout. This is where most of the French losses happen, either stampeded by their own or cut down or captured by the pursuing English knights.

The English don’t chase them far, however, because there’s still a second line of French men-at-arms which hasn’t been committed to the battle, and the English have a large number of captives to keep an eye on. In the event, the French don’t renew the attack, and send out their heralds to parley.

So yes, the English won a major victory and the peasants played a big role, but the popular version misses the actual mechanics of the battle. “Conquest of France” is also rather strong. Immediately after the battle Henry turned around and went home to London. His later advantage is more down to the long term consequences of the sheer amount of the French aristocracy killed in the battle rather than any immediate gains.

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by austincheney on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @01:25AM (#25043293)
Something like 6000 soldiers were taken captive and the captives began to outnumber the entirety of English forces, so the English chose to execute them all as a necessary means of security, but really many of the archers were slaughtering them anyways as a means to loot the bodies.
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by smogcutter on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @11:05PM (#25055403)
Yeah I left this episode out bc the post was turning into a novel. Henry was spooked by a raid on the English baggage train, and the prospect of being caught between the prisoners in the rear and a renewed French attack in front.

As horrifying as the incident is, Keegan at least finds it unlikely that the prisoners were actually massacred wholesale. When you look at the actual mechanics of how such a thing would work, especially with the rest of the French army still on the field and watching, a slaughter of 6000 prisoners becomes really implausible.

For space I won’t quote Keegan’s reasoning, but here’s an excerpt from his conclusion:

> “What seems altogether more likely, therefore, is that Henry’s order, rather than bring about the prisoners’ massacre, was intended by its threat to terrorize them into abject inactivity ... Some would have been killed in the process, and quite deliberately, but we need not reckon their number in thousands, perhaps not even in hundreds.”

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by austhrow743 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @12:36AM (#25043075)
Is it known why they piled into dense columns and pushed themselves on to spears?
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by smogcutter on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @01:26AM (#25043297)
So while we know from witnesses that this did happen, anything about why is going to involve some conjecture. But from what I recall, there are a few reasons.

The English army was arranged in a single line, with large groups of archers alternating with small groups of men at arms. For the men at arms (on both sides), combat was primarily about winning personal glory, secondarily about scoring some loot. The only way to get either is by attacking the enemy men at arms. No personal upside in attacking yeoman archers (other than, uh, maybe winning the battle. Whoops.)

So you naturally funnel towards the enemy you want to fight. Remember these guys aren’t marching in formation like Romans or early modern pikemen. It’s a loosely organized mass of individuals.

On top of that, the survivors of the cavalry attack on the flanks retreat through the infantry, throwing them into disorder. This also helps condense the infantry as they try to make way for the cavalry.

On top of that, getting shot at by clouds of arrows sucks even if realistically you’re not in a lot of danger. Getting out from in front of the archers would feel safer.

Plus, even if you’re a smart knight who knows you should be attacking the archers, that doesn’t do you any good unless everyone else comes too. Getting caught our on your own is how you get ganged up on, knocked down into the mud, and stabbed through the visor by some dirt farmer with a dagger. Which is exactly what happened to the guys on the edges of the columns. So you stick with the crowd. Once you’re in the crowd, it becomes packed too tightly for you to change your mind.

At the front of the columns, witnesses report the English stepping back at the last moment, causing the leading french to wrong foot their attack and stumble. So it’s chaotic, they haven’t smashed through the English line, but the guys further back have no way of knowing that and keep pressing forwards.

As an aside, I didn’t mean to make it sound like the spears were a particularly English thing. Most on both sides would’ve had some kind of polearm. In mass combat a sword is often a backup weapon.

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by austincheney on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @01:22AM (#25043273)
The geography created a dense and inescapable column of a battlefield. The French army was huge so once you started marching forward you couldn't stop because there were people behind you marching forward. Soldiers were literally pushed onto the wooden stakes because of the crowd and many others were either trampled to death or drowned in the mud while being stepped on.
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by planetsmashr on Monday November 09, 2020 @11:31PM (#25042823)
Interesting and enjoyable comment, thanks for sharing!
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by pdonis on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:12PM (#25042214)
Most of the English soldiers who killed knights at Agincourt were longbowmen shooting from a distance and protected by both terrain and a line of sharpened stakes that prevented the French cavalry from charging them. That is not the kind of direct confrontation that the article is talking about.
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by crooked-v on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:15PM (#25042229)
It was at a distance at first, but towards the end of the battle the longbowmen gradually advanced into point-blank range and then, as they ran out of arrows, switched to whatever melee weapons they had to mob the incapacitated French men-at-arms and knights.

Though it's certainly true that the historical English longbowman wasn't the usual 'peasant' stereotype, given that they were generally landowners (rather than tenant farmers) and were actually legally required to take a certain amount of regular practice weekly with the bow.

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by jdeibele on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @12:31AM (#25043058)
https://www.forbes.com/2010/06/16/legal-humor-archery-opinio... says that the English were required to practice the longbow starting before the 13th Century. In 1541 every man 60 and under was to have a longbow and practice it. Many games were then banned for possibly distracting men from archery.

Interestingly there's no information on where the bows were to come from but it sounds like the typical longbowman would have the income to buy it himself.

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by teruakohatu on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:43PM (#25042362)
> English longbowman wasn't the usual 'peasant' stereotype, given that they were generally landowners

Can you elaborate. I thought serfdom was still around in 1415 in England.

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by barry-cotter on Monday November 09, 2020 @10:00PM (#25042451)
Serfdom was on its last legs in England by this stage. I believe there were plenty of landowners who practiced the longbow but a majority would have been yeomen who were tenants of big solid farms, not themselves landowners. England was almost the first place to get rid of serfdom and a peasantry both, though the Netherlands may have it beat. Remember we’re on the verge of the Reformation. These are quite urbanized bourgeois societies by the 1400s.
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by bashmelek on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:55PM (#25042422)
"If you want to train a longbowman, start with his grandfather." Being a longbowman took extensive training and practice.
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by jaggederest on Monday November 09, 2020 @10:01PM (#25042454)
As far as I am aware, most longbowmen at the time were yeomen, a sort of middle class between the landed gentry and the serf class, where they owned their land and thus had the free time and energy to practice and hunt with a longbow.
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by jcranmer on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:49PM (#25042393)
The Battle of the Golden Spurs would be a better example, with several French nobles (such as the Marshal of France and the Constable of France!) ultimately losing their lives to pikemen. All the more surprising because this was pretty much the first battle in Medieval history where the side with the most knights lost (quite badly).

Admittedly, the Flemish side wasn't exactly peasantry but largely townspeople in guilds, although in terms of the classic three-tier model (nobility, clergy, peasantry), they would have fallen into the last class.

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by paultopia on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:38PM (#25042337)
But it matters---the same point could be made about the Battle of Poitiers, in which the fancy French noble knights were crushed, mostly by longbowmen. It's silly to ask the question of whether peasants could kill knights without considering the actual ways peasants killed knights...
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by bschwindHN on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:55PM (#25042426)
> longbowmen shooting from a distance and protected by both terrain and a line of sharpened stakes

Ugh, camping snipers.

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by gtpedrosa on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:28PM (#25042295)
Your comment regarding the archers reminded me of "The Grail Quest" book series by Bernard Cornwell
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by nl on Monday November 09, 2020 @10:40PM (#25042617)
Bernard Cornwell wrote a fictionalised account of the battle of Agincourt (the book is called Azincourt). It's very good if you enjoy Cornwell.
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by User23 on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:08PM (#25042177)
The English peasants were a special lot. England had an archery mandate going back to at least the 13th century so we're not talking about random untrained peasants. Also lots of things went right for the English and wrong for the French at Agincourt.
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by nl on Monday November 09, 2020 @11:07PM (#25042736)
> Also lots of things went right for the English and wrong for the French at Agincourt.

This is true, but one should note that the Battle of Crécy 70 years earlier had shown the same pattern.

(Although of course there were many other battles in the 100 year war where bowmen were not as decisive).

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by Forge36 on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:04PM (#25042154)
Was this the battle historians put a lot of blame on the "steel boots"?

Peasants had cloth boots which didn't get stuck into the mud as much so they didn't get as tired.

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by throwaway0a5e on Monday November 09, 2020 @09:05PM (#25042159)
>Was this the battle historians put a lot of blame on the "steel boots"?

Among other things.

It takes more than shoes to get such a one sided outcome.

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by willcipriano on Monday November 09, 2020 @10:13PM (#25042510)
> It takes more than shoes to get such a one sided outcome.

If you make them out of cardboard and try to cross the Carpathian Mountains perhaps not.

https://ww1blog.osborneink.com/?p=5961

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by C1sc0cat on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @05:13AM (#25044332)
Um the English longbowmen where highly paid professional soldiers or mercenaries not peasants.

An English longbowman was paid more in real terms than a Squaddie is today

Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by z3phyr on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @07:04AM (#25045020)
We tend to remember the exceptions out of the countless military engagements that went as planned.
Re:Could a Peasant Defeat a Knight in Battle? by MichaelMoser123 on Monday November 09, 2020 @11:01PM (#25042718)
longbows had a big role in the battle of Agincourt. It was part of a wider switch from very expensive defensive armor and warriors on expensive horses (that were eating a lot of grain) towards stuff that could kill at a distance. The middle ages isn't one monolithic period, it's quite a complex business. See https://www.britannica.com/technology/military-technology/Th...