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Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by threatofrain on Friday November 06, 2020 @03:56AM (#25006133)
It's extremely difficult to say that Jack Ma is an idiot because of his discussion with Elon Musk. Jack Ma has to play a parallel game of high-stakes political poker.
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by reitzensteinm on Friday November 06, 2020 @04:29AM (#25006329)
And do it in a non native language.

In Germany my friends spoke very good English, but there were still times they'd sound like the drunken ramblings of a native speaker.

Only later on I'd realize the points they were trying to make and that they were running rings around me intellectually, just having trouble expressing it.

That experience has left me more or less giving a free pass to ESL speakers saying things that sound dumb, especially when it's off the cuff.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by arcticbull on Friday November 06, 2020 @04:42AM (#25006382)
It’s what he was saying — not how, in particular the part where he believed machines were incapable of being smarter than humans, because if you try to compete with them in an area they’re good at you’re dumb for doing that. He then contradicted himself by using the example of a human in a foot race with a car. Then he states that human intelligence comes from the soul anyways.

To be fair, Jack Ma was an English teacher, has a Bachelor of Arts in English from Hangzhou Teachers University and he was an English lecturer at Hangzhou Dianzi University. While he may have an accent his communication style is quite clear IMO.

If I thought this was at all a language or communication issue I’d never have posted it.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by yorwba on Friday November 06, 2020 @06:55AM (#25006975)
> It’s what he was saying — not how

You also need to take into account to whom he was saying it. Although they were ostensibly talking to each other, Musk was speaking to the fears of Americans afraid their jobs might get automated, while Ma was addressing Chinese who hope their jobs will get automated.

Consequently, their definition of "smart" is not the same. Musk equates smartness with being good at your job, while Ma thinks it's better to be "street smart" and let someone else do the work for you. Or in the car vs. human example, why try to outrun it if you could be sitting in the driver's seat?

> Then he states that human intelligence comes from the soul anyways.

I thought that was a clever riff on Musk's somewhat awkward "AI means love in Chinese, right?" conversation starter.

> To be fair, Jack Ma was an English teacher, has a Bachelor of Arts in English from Hangzhou Teachers University and he was an English lecturer at Hangzhou Dianzi University. While he may have an accent his communication style is quite clear IMO.

I don't know whether you've ever experienced a foreign-language class taught by a non-native speaker, but I've taken Academic Writing classes in English at a top Chinese university and the quality was terrible. English literacy is rare in China even though it is a mandatory subject, so the bar to becoming a teacher is quite low. Often, they'll have an excellent breadth of vocabulary, while being unfamiliar with many idiomatic expressions and cultural references that come naturally to a native speaker.

That said, I did think he was communicating quite clearly, but since my understanding appears to be quite different from yours, maybe that's just a reflection of our different expectations.

On the other hand, if the event was specifically organized so that they could speak past each other and endear themselves to their respective audiences, it was a genius move.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by Danieru on Friday November 06, 2020 @10:05AM (#25008071)
> "AI means love in Chinese, right?" conversation starter.

Oh neat, a pun which works both in Japanese and Chinese.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by SkyMarshal on Friday November 06, 2020 @01:06PM (#25009710)
>while Ma was addressing Chinese who hope their jobs will get automated.

Why do Chinese want their jobs to be automated?

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by yorwba on Friday November 06, 2020 @01:45PM (#25010042)
For the same reason that a farmer wants a tractor and a seamstress wants a sewing machine. Controlling the machines that do the work is less exhausting and higher-status than doing the work yourself.

Of course not all Chinese think like that, but an optimist view of future technology seems much more prevalent in Chinese-language media than in the English-speaking world. Maybe that's because China is still at a relatively low level of industrial automation and trying to catch up to advanced manufacturing economies like Japan or Germany with their "Made in China 2025" initiative.

And the overall optimism doesn't mean there aren't also critical voices, worried that instead it will be the machines controlling the humans who do the work. E.g. Renwu recently published an article about delivery drivers struggling to meet the deadlines set by the system, which you can read translated into English by Jeffrey Ding here: https://chinai.substack.com/p/chinai-111-algorithms-and-food...

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by arcticbull on Friday November 06, 2020 @02:18PM (#25010291)
This is something that confuses me about Americans. Why on earth wouldn't everyone want their job automated? The only thing we should be discussing is how you fairly distribute the proceeds in a world where humans don't need to work.
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by Traster on Saturday November 07, 2020 @06:57PM (#25021125)
The reality of automation in America is that the value created by automation is captured exclusively by the large corporations that own the machines and their senior executives. So whilst the theory is you want automation, in reality it provides only risks to the person whose job you're automating.
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by ls612 on Friday November 06, 2020 @02:41PM (#25010473)
Because from a realpolitik/game theory perspective if your existence doesn’t contribute any sort of value to others/society there’s little incentive for others/society to keep you around. And that always ends in a very ugly way.
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by arcticbull on Friday November 06, 2020 @05:11PM (#25011653)
There is a built-in self-limiting mechanism for this. As development level increases (and coincidentally the number of workers required decreases) so does human fertility. Birth rate in the US is 1.77, well below the replacement rate of 2.1; Canada is 1.5, Finland is 1.49, Japan is 1.43. The workers are disappearing peacefully already.
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by reitzensteinm on Friday November 06, 2020 @05:15AM (#25006522)
Well he sounds to me like he was struggling. Very much so. If I didn't think he was, I wouldn't have posted what I did either.

I agree the points he was making were vapid, and I stopped watching fairly quickly because of it.

Maybe he really is an idiot, but I don't think this video was at all conclusive proof.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by divbzero on Friday November 06, 2020 @03:03PM (#25010630)
I think words chosen can still affect content and persuasiveness. I've heard Jack Ma speak in person and the most convincing bit was a segment where he switched back to Chinese.

That said, I agree that Jack Ma is far from as technical as Elon Musk, and still consider his spin-off of Alipay (Ant) from Alibaba to be very questionable from a corporate governance standpoint.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by programmertote on Friday November 06, 2020 @12:59PM (#25009648)
100% this. As a English-as-a-second-language speaker, there are times when I wish I could speak up and express my thoughts/emotions in a way that is palatable to the audience (native English speakers), but decided to stay quiet because I am not sure if it'll come out right or because my brain cannot process fast enough to speak fluently/eloquently. I consider myself fairly decent in English vocabulary and reading (not bragging but scored 720 out of 800 in both SAT and GRE verbal), but I still cannot do as well as native speakers in expressing my concerns/opinions during business meetings. Sometimes, I wish the tables are turned so that I can speak my native language and am able to make persuasive arguments in discussions.

Language barrier is real and I am guessing some English speakers may never understand/empathize with the non-native speakers.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by ciarannolan on Friday November 06, 2020 @10:58AM (#25008535)
Jack Ma taught English at the university level [1]. He wasn't struggling for words, he's just not as smart as some had assumed.

[1] https://money.cnn.com/2018/09/09/technology/business/jack-ma...

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by reitzensteinm on Friday November 06, 2020 @06:00PM (#25011946)
As a sibling reply pointed out, this doesn't necessarily mean as much as you think it means.
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by ciarannolan on Friday November 06, 2020 @08:26PM (#25012594)
Can you link it please? I'm not seeing it.
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by reitzensteinm on Friday November 06, 2020 @08:56PM (#25012725)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25006975

For what it's worth this matches my own limited experience from the early 2000s.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by ciarannolan on Friday November 06, 2020 @09:30PM (#25012843)
Thanks!

Relevant from other comment:

> I don't know whether you've ever experienced a foreign-language class taught by a non-native speaker, but I've taken Academic Writing classes in English at a top Chinese university and the quality was terrible. English literacy is rare in China even though it is a mandatory subject, so the bar to becoming a teacher is quite low. Often, they'll have an excellent breadth of vocabulary, while being unfamiliar with many idiomatic expressions and cultural references that come naturally to a native speaker.

[dead]
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by qwertox on Friday November 06, 2020 @05:50AM (#25006663)
Idiot, moron, is that insulting language really necessary? There are so many forums on the internet where this kind of demeaning tone is tradition, why not just leave it over there and keep this space clean?

He said it himself: If he doesn't want to do something or it is too difficult for him, he just delegates it, gesturing with his hand like a monarch would do. So the core of your statement is very likely true.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by baybal2 on Friday November 06, 2020 @04:53AM (#25006442)
I knew some people who worked in Alibaba at around the time when Ma started to handing over duties to Tsai, and Zhang.

All say the company was actually much better run when Ma was managing company day to day, than when after Tsai took over operations, and himself just hired tons of "pro managers" to hand over errands.

At around this time (2012-2013), Tsai decided to show how much of a serious tech exec he was..., and he came with idea to do what big boy do, and rewrite all of Alibaba's core code into one True Enterprise Grade Java MegaFramework of Doom.

And it was at that time when their website quality started to fall off a cliff, and they started loosing talented people who were off-put by Tsai's management...

I'd say Aliexpress was much better at the time of it launch, than it is now. Alibaba, and 1688 had an even more dramatic loss of quality, and vendor oversight.

P.S. People talk about party affiliation of Ma from him joining the part to be allowed to teach in eighties, while forgetting that Tsai does not even hide his affiliation with the United Front (an organisation for CPC's version of "useful idiots,)" and is a much more outspoken political player, and party appologist.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by toast0 on Friday November 06, 2020 @11:31AM (#25008838)
I've made a couple purchases from AliExpress lately, and the conclusion I came to was that their site is purposefully shoddy to lower expectations.
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by projektfu on Friday November 06, 2020 @11:14AM (#25008690)
I’ve never really understood how one can use Alibaba effectively. It’s mostly spam from middlemen who lie about having their own factories. It must be a full time, specialized job being a purchasing manager who can use the platform.
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by baybal2 on Friday November 06, 2020 @11:20AM (#25008743)
The thing is, their search used to be much better, and they had much better spam control before.
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by not_a_moth on Friday November 06, 2020 @04:03AM (#25006178)
Given that Jack Ma has been a member of the CCP since the 80s [1] I think his success has come a lot easier than Western entrepreneurs

[1] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/27/alibabas-jack-ma-has-been-co...

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by dragonelite on Friday November 06, 2020 @08:17AM (#25007377)
Does it really matters, i mean US industrial/tech giants all donate to the parties to get some advantage nationally and globally? Should we be questioning western CEO political affiliations and donations when talking about their companies?
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by indigochill on Saturday November 07, 2020 @09:44AM (#25015324)
> Should we be questioning western CEO political affiliations and donations when talking about their companies?

Absolutely. Political affiliations speak to the philosophy of the CEO and, by proxy, how they'll lead their company. E.g. Palantir is behaving exactly as expected given Peter Thiel's politics.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by manigandham on Friday November 06, 2020 @04:10AM (#25006218)
What's that actually mean? Does he even have a choice to not be a member? What are the chances this is rewritten history for PR?
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by dmix on Friday November 06, 2020 @04:13AM (#25006237)
I read in a book about China by New Yorker magazines China expert [1] and he said that up to a third of Chinese citizens are either party members, part of youth groups, or work directly for a CCP owned company.

So it’s not everyone but it’s a lot. The actual CCP membership itself is much lower though. It’s more like an octopus in their society.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Age-Ambition-Chasing-Fortune-Truth/dp...

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by elcomet on Friday November 06, 2020 @04:25AM (#25006303)
But I guess it's very different for people that have some power like CEOs. I doubt there is a CEO that is not in the CCP.
Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by em500 on Friday November 06, 2020 @04:42AM (#25006383)
The article mentioned that Tencent and Baidu CEOs are not CCP party members. It's not a big deal, one way or the other. Journalist and internet pundits simply like to play it up. Most of us don't understand much of the workings of the CCP, partly due to deliberate intransparency partly due to the language barrier. So it's fertile ground for all kinds of baseless speculation.

Even without language barrier, I think most of it is just the nature of politics and holding positions of power. It's not like many of us have a very good understanding of the inner workings of the higher cadres in the (D) and (R) parties, or of the leadership teams / boardrooms of large companies either.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by em500 on Friday November 06, 2020 @04:27AM (#25006317)
It doesn't mean much more than that some American CEO is a member of the (R) or (D) party. The CCP has 90 million members, it's not some hugely exclusionary club, though relatively speaking a bit more exclusionary than the (R) and (D) party in the US with respectively 33M and 45M members.

As mentioned in the article, the CEOs of the other tech giants Tencent and Baidu are not members. It's simply not a huge deal one way or the other.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by AlchemistCamp on Friday November 06, 2020 @05:45AM (#25006649)
Democrats and Republicans can't limit their membership at all.

Not only that, but there isn't even a singular party of democrats or repulicans. Every state has its own party for each.

People can decide which party they are in and the party itself has no say in the matter.

Re:Jack Ma fell to earth and took Ant's mega IPO with him by baybal2 on Friday November 06, 2020 @04:39AM (#25006370)
Being a party member was a pre-requisite for becoming a schoolteacher back then, and it seems China is well set to returns to this madness yet again.