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Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by Fwirt on Wednesday November 04, 2020 @07:29PM (#24994545)
Whenever this comes up I always find it interesting that nobody comments on the now 60-year ongoing program that eradicated the screwworm fly from the US by doing pretty much the same thing: releasing millions of genetically altered (sterilized by radiation!) screwworms that mate with the native population. I have no comment on the positive or negative outcomes of the environmental modifications that both programs cause, just that it's interesting that there's so much visible backlash against the mosquito program while nobody mentions the screwworm one.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by reedf1 on Thursday November 05, 2020 @03:39AM (#24996590)
I briefly worked in a leading Biology lab as an undergrad - and this sort of work came up. Genetic modification considered alone is not scary. Gene drives designed for sterilization on the other hand - are.

I was given a long explanation about how gene drives worked and was filled with mild existential terror at how easy it would be to replace "mosquito" with "human". I knew many biologists capable of performing these procedures. It would only take one disgruntled post-doc to really cause humanity existential damage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_drive

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by mattmanser on Thursday November 05, 2020 @03:48AM (#24996635)
One post-doc could release 750 million genetically altered humans and we'd be doomed.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by niea_11 on Thursday November 05, 2020 @04:15AM (#24996734)
I think @reedf1 is talking about the long term damage to a population.

With the gene drive technology, the modified gene is always inherited.

the 750 million number is there to speed up the process.

(This my understanding from reading the first few paragraphs from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_drive)

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by abricot on Thursday November 05, 2020 @07:05AM (#24997500)
How exactly would they inherit the genes if it causes sterility?
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by niea_11 on Thursday November 05, 2020 @09:28AM (#24998515)
Sterility is just one example of gene modification.

A harmful modification that doesn't cause sterility will propagate across generations if the indivuals are able to reproduce.

For example a scenario where we see the symptoms but we don't know that they are caused by a gene modification. And where individuals are still able to live and have children.

And I'm not saying that the tech is bad. I'm sure that people can come up with a lot of good use cases.

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by mattmanser on Thursday November 05, 2020 @11:13AM (#24999433)
That's not how evolution works.

If it's harmful, it will get selected against, and will disappear rather rapidly.

There's a reason why they need to release 750 million genetically modified mosquitos, and not just 1.

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by thatguy0900 on Thursday November 05, 2020 @12:16PM (#24999942)
Does evolution in that manner really apply to humans anymore? I'm basically blind without glasses and I still get to have kids, probably would have died as a useless child in caveman days Edit: I'm downvoted but I'm curious why. It seems to me that modern medicine has eliminated large parts of natural selection for humans. Is that not the case?
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by andrewflnr on Thursday November 05, 2020 @11:07PM (#25004794)
Presumably your mental abilities have compensated for your physical issues, thus increasing your fitness. That's valid evolutionary logic as well.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by mcjkrw on Friday November 06, 2020 @02:28PM (#25010368)
I think it's about that the natural selection applies only to the current environment. We are not to be fit to live in caveman days, but in the modern society. If having a condition does not present an obstacle to navigate the world and mate, then it won't be selected against.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by brixon on Thursday November 05, 2020 @12:35PM (#25000130)
evolution and rapidly don't go together.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by mattmanser on Thursday November 05, 2020 @12:37PM (#25000150)
Rapidly in evolutionary terms.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by nelsontodd on Thursday November 05, 2020 @12:15PM (#24999937)
Well i’d say the inability to understand probability is a harmful trait but you’re clearly still here and might even have kids. And everyone with asthma, type 1 diabetes, and a tiny dick would like a word with you. Idiot
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by mattmanser on Thursday November 05, 2020 @12:56PM (#25000336)
I'm sorry, it must be tough having those three conditions, but unfortunately that has little to do with what we're discussing.

With 6 billion people in the world today, even if our nefarious post-doc somehow gene-spliced 100 people with a 100% probability transmit of a "bad" recessive gene, it would take so many generations for any effect to be felt.

By then, we can assume, it would be trivial to reverse the "damage" caused. Hence the eye-rolling at the idea that one post-doc could be any serious threat.

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by tim333 on Thursday November 05, 2020 @11:09AM (#24999392)
I think the idea with gene drive is the offspring are sterile so if you went with one of the genetically modified guys you'd get kids but not grandkids.

You could always have a tick box for it on the Tinder profile.

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by RcrdBrt on Thursday November 05, 2020 @07:34AM (#24997678)
Sterility for only 1 sex type maybe?
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by Dylan16807 on Thursday November 05, 2020 @06:14AM (#24997282)
Being always inherited, in humans, is no danger at all. Someone can develop a deactivation shot before the first generation to inherit the gene hits puberty.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by CGamesPlay on Thursday November 05, 2020 @06:34AM (#24997354)
And then sell it, so only the wealthy can reproduce!
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by yowlingcat on Thursday November 05, 2020 @08:17AM (#24997950)
Why do I get the sinking feeling that this will be commercialized "first as tragedy, then as farce"
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by Dylan16807 on Thursday November 05, 2020 @06:57PM (#25003438)
I have to admit I don't really see the plan here.

Mad geneticist injects 1000 people with a gene.

50 years later, 7500 people have to pay for the fix! The profits!

And that's ignoring the failure rate of the initial shot.

This is a worse return on investment than a maniacal scheme to infect people directly, and then 1:1 charge them for a cure.

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by grognak420 on Thursday November 05, 2020 @07:39AM (#24997707)
Ready for your corona shot?
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by hilbert42 on Thursday November 05, 2020 @05:50AM (#24997181)
"I was given a long explanation about how gene drives worked and was filled with mild existential terror at how easy it would be to replace "mosquito" with "human"."

You're right of course, and unfortunately sooner or later what you say will come to pass (tragically, I see it as inevitable).

My take is slightly different: as the technology is here now, and given that we cannot stop it (certainly not in the long term - as eventually the tech will get so easy that it'll done in backyard sheds), then it's better to run with something like this mosquito eradication which hopefully may do some good.

With luck - and we'll need lots of it - intelligent regulation may follow. Ban it outright and it'll definitely go underground. Backyard sheds will then become labs that are centers of research. Heaven knows where that would lead us.

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by feanaro on Thursday November 05, 2020 @06:07AM (#24997244)
When this happens for humans, I predict that we would also see parallel development of tests which ensure that a potential mate does not have gene drives in their genome.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by easton_s on Thursday November 05, 2020 @07:50AM (#24997787)
You have now re-invented the TV series "Island City" from 1994.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by charlieflowers on Thursday November 05, 2020 @09:19AM (#24998401)
Stargate had a set of episodes that was roughly near this topic too. It was one of my faves.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by JulianMorrison on Thursday November 05, 2020 @07:44AM (#24997741)
It would only really work in a population that doesn't have genetic testing, which we do. And it would be very slow because humans take approximately 20 years to start producing the next generation.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by ornornor on Thursday November 05, 2020 @07:08AM (#24997517)
How would you do it in humans though? Can you “modify” existing individuals’ genome without their consent or noticing? Asking because I know close to nothing on the subject.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by BorisTheBrave on Thursday November 05, 2020 @04:11AM (#24996718)
While gene drives are scary powerful tech (note, the featured article is not a gene drive), I don't think it would really be a problem humanity wise. We breed a lot slower, so we'd have decades to notice and deal with a problem. And we can apply all sorts of solutions that mosquitos are not capable of.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by ben_w on Thursday November 05, 2020 @04:23AM (#24996775)
Perhaps I am being naive (I’m certainly ignorant enough to be), but I don’t see why we should be worried about gene drives in humans — surely we can, in principle, genetically modify ourselves to fix the problem gene drives would cause?

For example, there was a story in the UK press (it may be fictional, but I think it will still serve the argument) that there is a gene which causes extremely strong male-directed sexual attraction in both men and women [0] — all men with it are gay, all women with it are hyperfertile, and the hyperfertility is strong enough that positive evolutionary pressure from the women counterbalances the negative pressure from the men.

I think that this sort of thing could count as a toy model of gene-drive, but do correct me if I’m misusing terms or generally failing to understand.

But, even in this toy example probably based on a journalist failing to understand the science, we can not only genetically modify ourselves, but also we have in-vitro fertilisation so we don’t even need to GM ourselves.

[0] don’t worry, I’m bi, this isn’t a hopeless pearl-clutching story about gay genes

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by greeneggs on Thursday November 05, 2020 @08:13AM (#24997927)
> surely we can, in principle, genetically modify ourselves to fix the problem gene drives would cause?

It might not be practically possible. Genetic modification has side effects, where typos are introduced in other areas than the target.

This means that the first generation of a hypothetical new gene drive is less likely to survive long. But once the gene drive got established subsequent generations would become more and more normal (as typos were lost by interbreeding and natural selection).

Now imagine that we discover a rogue gene drive introduced in humans after, say, it has affected 1000 individuals. There isn't any way of ethically fixing it in their children. You can't go to a person and tell them that they are not allowed to have children. Nor can you tell them that they need to undergo an experiment that makes their children 100x more likely to die young, for example.

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by sizzle on Thursday November 05, 2020 @02:01PM (#25000889)
Wouldn't this be a problem that would not surface in our lifetime if it affects future births and the professor wouldn't be around to see the end result?
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by macintux on Wednesday November 04, 2020 @08:57PM (#24994997)
It hasn’t come up often, but it’s certainly not true that it doesn’t come up at all.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by chrisweekly on Wednesday November 04, 2020 @09:14PM (#24995074)
Thanks for that hn.algolia.com search link; scanned it and found this gem that summarizes the screwworms story concisely:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23377636

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by scarier on Wednesday November 04, 2020 @08:08PM (#24994735)
Tangentially related: "The Screwfly Solution" by Raccoona Sheldon is a fantastic (but pretty dark) short story.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by chrisweekly on Wednesday November 04, 2020 @09:21PM (#24995111)
I couldn't not look up "Racoona Sheldon" and found:

Alice Bradley Sheldon (August 24, 1915 – May 19, 1987) was an American science fiction author better known as James Tiptree Jr., a pen name she used from 1967 to her death. It was not publicly known until 1977 that James Tiptree Jr. was a woman. From 1974 to 1977 she also used the pen name Raccoona Sheldon. Sheldon was inducted by the Science Fiction Hall of Fame in 2012.[2]

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by 8bitsrule on Wednesday November 04, 2020 @10:34PM (#24995418)
Wow, what a bio. 1941: Chicago Sun art critic. WW2: WAAC major. 1952-55 CIA. 1967 PhD from GWU in experimental psychology.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by StreamBright on Thursday November 05, 2020 @05:23AM (#24997050)
I was not aware of this.

For those who are unfamiliar with the screwworm program:

https://www.aphis.usda.gov/aphis/ourfocus/internationalservi...

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by pabs3 on Wednesday November 04, 2020 @07:47PM (#24994637)
I wonder what the trade-offs are for genetic engineering vs radiation sterilization for the mosquito situation.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by virtue3 on Wednesday November 04, 2020 @07:56PM (#24994677)
"The sterile insect technique was proposed by scientists Edward F. Knipling and Raymond C. Bushland, and was rapidly adopted by the United States Department of Agriculture in 1958. The technique centers on a unique reproductive handicap that prevents female C. hominivorax flies from mating more than once."

From wikipedia.

So, probably not effective for mosquitos.

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by k8ram on Wednesday November 04, 2020 @11:20PM (#24995632)
Isn't there a difference between sterilization, and genetic intervention, on potential unknowns? I am not saying that the first one was entirely safe, but explicit gene editing seems to be much more risky than sterilizing.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by magoghm on Wednesday November 04, 2020 @11:57PM (#24995782)
Sterilized by radiation sounds much more risky to me. You don't know what else was changed by the radiation. With gene editing at least you know what you changed.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by michaelmrose on Thursday November 05, 2020 @12:58AM (#24995994)
If you sterilize an animal it doesn't reproduce. These insects only don't reproduce well.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by zaarn on Thursday November 05, 2020 @01:39AM (#24996130)
How would you check millions of insects for actually being sterile? Considering it cost 100M$, I assume they established a non-lethal dose of radiation and then just blasted the insects. Could easily be that one develops beneficial mutations.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by Knufen on Thursday November 05, 2020 @02:49AM (#24996395)
Not to sound condescending but I think we have yet to observe radiation leading to useful mutation. Radiation does not lead to 'mutation' in the sense of what you are implying. Rather it leads to DNA damages (breakage of chemical bonds) which usually leads to cancer.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by zaarn on Thursday November 05, 2020 @02:54AM (#24996415)
Radiation increases mutation rates. Natural mutations occur through not vastly different mechanisms either.

In case you think no positive mutations come out of it; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_breeding

We literally blasted plants with radiation and then bred the ones that looked like they had some positive mutations.

Especially the list of notable results is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation_breeding#Notable_muta...

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by Knufen on Thursday November 05, 2020 @03:03AM (#24996451)
You are definitely right, but I probably should have specified. Irradiating seeds is vastly different than irradiating already living specimen, and hardly transferable to insects I believe.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by zaarn on Thursday November 05, 2020 @03:07AM (#24996466)
Irradiating the entire specimen is not so different if you also irradiate the part of them that produces the seed. You're just irradiating an earlier stage of reproduction, the result is unlikely to be different. Seeds have the advantage that they do not move and contain little water that could interfere with the radiation. The insect will produce it's own seed once irradiated, infertile or not.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by NickNameNick on Thursday November 05, 2020 @04:39AM (#24996844)
It's been tried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_gardening

"The practice of plant irradiation has resulted in the development of over 2000 new varieties of plants, most of which are now used in agricultural production"

See also:

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/atom-garden-eden/

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by PopeDotNinja on Thursday November 05, 2020 @02:04AM (#24996221)
I'm imagining a lab where how effectively mosquitos are humping in measured after blasting their naughty bits with radiation. That is amazing.

"What do you do for a living?"

"Have you ever heard of PornHub? Well, I'm a contributor to MosquitoHub. It sucks less and less everyday!"

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by tyingq on Thursday November 05, 2020 @06:43AM (#24997385)
Off the top of my head, the general public hears "genetically modified mosquitoes" and immediately thinks of how mosquitoes suck their blood. Cue zombie movie plots, etc.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by raducu on Thursday November 05, 2020 @02:55AM (#24996420)
Could we do the same for ticks?
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by wmil on Thursday November 05, 2020 @05:48AM (#24997177)
I can see a couple of problems...

Male ticks still bite, so they'd still cause problems. Although presumably lab ticks would be disease free.

A bigger issue is spread. Mosquitoes fly so you can do a release and they'll spread over a large area. Ticks walk. They can't travel as far. I suppose you could drop them from drones or a plane.

Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by StavrosK on Thursday November 05, 2020 @05:57AM (#24997206)
They'd cause problems for a few generations, until their population collapsed from a lack of females.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by learnstats2 on Thursday November 05, 2020 @07:39AM (#24997703)
I never thought 'Jurassic Park' would become a prescient warning.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by jobigoud on Thursday November 05, 2020 @03:44AM (#24996610)
Should we? What is normally eating the ticks or living off of them?
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by shellfishgene on Thursday November 05, 2020 @05:04AM (#24996947)
You also have to ask the other way around: What do ticks do to their hosts? Animals such as moose or reindeer can suffer greatly from heavy tick infestations. Depending on the death rate this causes removing the ticks could have similar effects to removing predators such as wolves from the ecosystem. However there are many tick species, and I doubt the impact would be that strong, but who knows.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by stinos on Thursday November 05, 2020 @04:22AM (#24996774)
Certain ant species can eat ticks, but as far as I'm aware there's no species feeding only off ticks, and Lyme and Encephalitis are really nasty. But it's an interesting question: suppose we can somehow erradicate all ticks, what effect would that have? How much do they matter for the food chain or on ecosystems in general?
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by jdhawk on Thursday November 05, 2020 @09:14AM (#24998356)
Ground birds as well. Chicken's (and Guinea Fowl) will eat large amounts of ticks if present.
Re:750M genetically modified mosquitoes to be released in Fl... by beauzero on Thursday November 05, 2020 @06:51AM (#24997420)
It is a part of the possum diet. They eat upwards of 5k per year.