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Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by baybal2 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @06:02AM (#24978461)
You have my solidarity, but I do not see C having a resurgence.

Can share horror stories of expensive hires with MSc/PhD degrees, and years of experience having a fright of their lifetime when they see real world C.

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by pjmlp on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @06:16AM (#24978552)
So are you planning to rewrite all those UNIX clones in something else?

Azure Sphere, Microsoft's paragon of IoT security, only allows for C.

Those expensive MSc/PhD should just complain to their universities for not providing a proper systems programming classes.

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by baybal2 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @06:26AM (#24978609)
I clearly need people who can do above helloworld level in C.

For many places, there are clearly no alternative to C.

The humongous open codebase of high quality C code, exceeding every other language, is also not going anywhere.

The situation is, shortly speaking, "no alternative to doing it in C, but we cannot do it in C because of some purely non-technical constraint." And the situation is very common I feel.

Chipmakers with billions of cash free to throw on RnD can't make any passable Linux kernel work. Google Chrome team must be employing best C++ hackers on the market, and yet.... and the story goes on like this.

The relative overabundance of webdev/java people hides the the fact that we are not only not gaining developers in conventional programming, but losing them fast to age, career change, or them returning back to home countries in case of labour migrants.

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by pjmlp on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @06:51AM (#24978779)
Those Java people also need to be at home with the low level concepts, if they are to do any usable work from what is coming from Panama.

Likewise those Webdevs might just brush up their skills for WebAssembly.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if one is using D, Rust, Swift, Java, C#, Rust, C++, Zig, FreePascal, CUDA, Open... instead of C.

The system programming concepts are the same, and it all boils down to education.

As for lousy candidates, I get them in any language.

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by baybal2 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @07:31AM (#24979019)
Can't say them not knowing them at all, or them being outright lousy.

When it come to CS fundamentals, algorithmics, most were better than me, who never studied CS academically. This was the reason we ever took interest in them.

It's just you cannot compensate for training, and experience with overall feel of skill. You can hire an ACM olympian, and the guy will still loose it unless he did C professionally for 3-4 years.

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by pjmlp on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @08:21AM (#24979369)
In my engineering degree doing stuff like B-Trees with its own i-node management module in C, validate against unit tests written by the professor, were requirements just to qualify for the data structures exam.

Someone lousy in low level coding won't go through such a curriculum,

https://www.di.fct.unl.pt/en/education/integrated-master-com...

Again, a matter of teaching quality.

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by FpUser on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @07:12AM (#24978907)
Any other "real world" software can be ugly and can be beautifully written in any language, including C (except ones where being cryptic is by design).

Basic C can be picked up in very short time. there is nothing to be frightened about. When I first laid my hands on C I wrote working software (keyboard driver for DOS) in a first day as a learning exercise. Not sure what other than incompetence as a programmers is causing your expensive PhDs "fright of their lifetime".

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by baybal2 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @07:40AM (#24979074)
> Not sure what other than incompetence as a programmers is causing your expensive PhDs "fright of their lifetime".

Memory management, handwritten loops, pointers everywhere, absence of ready made data structures, error handling (or its absence,) epopeia with C strings, sanitizing inputs, and nausea from the slightest smell of SIMD, or basic binary hackery to begin with.

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by FpUser on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @09:38AM (#24979978)
Those are needed for the tasks C was made to handle: complete control over everything being a primary one. If you do not need those tasks you do not need C. And if you do then get used to it.
Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by zepto on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @12:56PM (#24982073)
Odd how well rust seems to manage to avoid them.

C was amazing when it was introduced, but is as archaic as COBOL today. We are stuck with it because of legacy.

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by pjmlp on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @02:44PM (#24983214)
Amazing only to those that never looked outside Bell Labs.

Amazing was what Burroughs was doing in 1961, 10 years before C came to be, IBM RISC research in PL/S and PL.8, VAX/VMS stuff in BLISS, Solo OS in Concurrent Pascal, Xerox XDE in Mesa, ....

Those were amazing in the 60's and mid-70's.

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by FpUser on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @02:22PM (#24982977)
>"C was amazing when it was introduced"

It was not amazing. It was decent particular tool for particular job. That was all about it. Same thing about Rust. There are no silver bullets laying around.

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by zepto on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @02:42PM (#24983190)
Whether you want to say it was amazing or not, it’s a legacy tool now.
Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @03:53PM (#24983864)
What do the cool kids use to write realtime or realtime-ish software with these days? What gets used for firmware? What gets used to write kernels? What gets used when you have to interact with hardware that uses memory mapped registers?

It might be C++ instead of C for some of the above, but that doesn't make C "a legacy tool".

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by zepto on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @04:02PM (#24983933)
I’m not saying it isn’t used.

I’m saying it’s a legacy tool from the early 70’s that is absolutely terrible compared to what we could have.

Cool kids use it because there is no alternative.

Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by FpUser on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @05:41PM (#24984877)
It is not
Re:DahliaOS operating system, combining the best of GNU/Linu... by zepto on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @06:53PM (#24985379)
Two words: Buffer overrun