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Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by recursive on Monday October 26, 2020 @02:27PM (#24899376)
"centre leaning"

Could you draw a diagram of this?

Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by tyrust on Monday October 26, 2020 @02:41PM (#24899587)
Beats me; maybe something like Michael Jackson leaning directly forward in the Smooth Criminal video (https://youtu.be/h_D3VFfhvs4?t=424).
Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by dylan604 on Monday October 26, 2020 @02:36PM (#24899505)
ahhh, you are only thinking of a 2D diagram. Take your circle with a line splitting through the middle. Now, rotate it so that it is a sphere. Tilt it at 23 degress, and you'll have a center leaning image.
Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by damagednoob on Monday October 26, 2020 @05:19PM (#24901564)
Heh. I should have known better that people would get stuck on this. Try find people to follow on Twitter with a nuanced view on abortion, somewhere between at right before birth and never.
Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by recursive on Monday October 26, 2020 @06:22PM (#24902212)
I literally don't know how to find or follow any thread on Twitter full stop. I've never been able to make any sense of the UI.
Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by core-questions on Monday October 26, 2020 @02:38PM (#24899545)
Sure, it's called the Overton Window, and it moves over time.

Generally speaking in America it has moved leftward continually since the American Revolution, which was a left-wing act of protest against a monarchical government (which, on a flatness <--> hierarchy view of the left/right axis, is among the furthest right political systems possible). Each successive major shift in American politics has been a shift towards the left in some way (more egalitarian/equalizing policies, more erosion of authoritative positions on social policies, etc).

Conquest's Second Law is in effect!

At any one time, the "center" is just the point of acceptable shared discourse between the organizations that control the 'poles' at the left and right extents of common discussion; anything past those poles is considered "extreme".

For example, during our lifetimes, discussion of a topic like Gay Marriage has gone from being an extreme leftist social policy you couldn't discuss with people in polite company, to being a hot topic of common debate that even Obama said he would not legalize, to becoming official policy, and then even being accepted by the Republican Party as simply the law of the land and not a subject for discussion any more, pushing the topic as far to the right now as it was to the left 30 years ago. (I hold no judgement on the topic here, merely using it as an example for how the window of what is socially acceptable can shift, and the "center" shifts with it.)

Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by heavyset_go on Monday October 26, 2020 @07:19PM (#24902654)
> even being accepted by the Republican Party as simply the law of the land and not a subject for discussion any more

This is the GOP party platform for 2016 & 2020:

> Our laws and our government’s regulations should recognize marriage as the union of one man and one woman and actively promote married family life as the basis of a stable and prosperous society. For that reason, as explained elsewhere in this platform, we do not accept the Supreme Court’s redefinition of marriage and we urge its reversal, whether through judicial reconsideration or a constitutional amendment returning control over marriage to the states.

https://gop.com/platform/renewing-american-values/#Item2

> Defending Marriage Against an Activist Judiciary

> Traditional marriage and family, based on marriage between one man and one woman, is the foundation for a free society and has for millennia been entrusted with rearing children and instilling cultural values. We condemn the Supreme Court’s ruling in United States v. Windsor, which wrongly removed the ability of Congress to define marriage policy in federal law. We also condemn the Supreme Court’s lawless ruling in Obergefell v. Hodges, which in the words of the late Justice Antonin Scalia, was a “judicial Putsch” — full of “silly extravagances” — that reduced “the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Storey to the mystical aphorisms of a fortune cookie.” In Obergefell, five unelected lawyers robbed 320 million Americans of their legitimate constitutional authority to define marriage as the union of one man and one woman. The Court twisted the meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment beyond recognition. To echo Scalia, we dissent. We, therefore, support the appointment of justices and judges who respect the constitutional limits on their power and respect the authority of the states to decide such fundamental social questions.

https://gop.com/platform/we-the-people/#Item4

Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by core-questions on Monday October 26, 2020 @08:09PM (#24903124)
> This is the GOP party platform for 2016 & 2020:

Surely you understand the difference between things written in a policy platform and things actually done in practice. There is no GOP rep who is out there stirring anything up on reversing this and despite the words "urging its reversal" there is not and will likely not ever be any action in this direction.

I can't really imagine someone following American politics for more than a year and not realizing this. Almost none of the policy white papers these parties and candidates write will ever be implemented, at all.

The GOP almost never does anything its base actually wants, in the socially-conservative sense. They just pretend they will, to get votes; the same way the Democrats pretend they're going to do any number of things for their base that never happen. It's just kayfabe, it's just an act to get you to vote and legitimize their power so that they can continue to do whatever is easiest and most expedient for each individual politician and player at any given moment.

Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by heavyset_go on Monday October 26, 2020 @09:59PM (#24903817)
I once heard some good advice that I'm going to repeat: when someone tells you who they are, you should listen. The GOP is telling us who they are with their party platform.

Anyway, I hear what you're saying a lot, and yet:

- The GOP enables Texas social workers to refuse LGBTQ clients[1]

- The Trump administration allows doctors to discriminate against LGBTQ people[2]

- The Trump administration allows taxpayer-funded adoption agencies to turn away LGBTQ parents[3][4]

- The Trump administration targets homeless trans people[5]

But most importantly, and directly to your point:

- In October of this year, conservative Supreme Court justices chose to speak out against Obergefell[6] at length, for four whole pages, while deciding not to hear another case[7]

[1] https://www.texastribune.org/2020/10/14/texas-social-workers...

[2] https://www.vox.com/identities/2020/4/24/21234532/trump-admi...

[3] https://www.nbcnews.com/feature/nbc-out/trump-admin-s-adopti...

[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avgFhrHqBWM

[5] https://www.vox.com/identities/2020/7/2/21311179/trump-hud-r...

[6] https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/05/us/politics/thomas-alito-...

[7] https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/supreme-c...

Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by core-questions on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @03:59PM (#24911171)
So, a few small "wins"; nothing major; nothing that is actually addressing the real concerns of these people that their culture and way of life is being changed forcibly around them without their consent. I don't think you'll find anyone that is satisfied with any of the above - at most perhaps someone who revels in this as some kind of revenge, but it doesn't accomplish what GOP voters want: the return of a strong middle class White culture that reflects the world they believe their ancestors to have been struggling toward.
Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by recursive on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @08:51PM (#24913770)
Culture is always changing regardless of anyone's consent, as it always has.

I'm confused about what you're saying about ".. don't think you'll find anyone that is satisfied ...". If no one is happy about these things, why do they continue to do them?

Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by core-questions on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @01:37AM (#24915585)
It's just meaningless bits of red meat chopped off to give the base something for a news cycle. Almost nothing ever comes of it, in the long run....
Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by r00fus on Monday October 26, 2020 @02:52PM (#24899719)
Mostly correct - however, the period after the Civil War moved the country distinctly back towards the right. Chinese Exclusion Act, among others, would not have been considered mainstream in the early 1800s. This continued well into the 1900s - which is when all the confederate hero statues were built (mostly by private funding). Many are being removed now.

In this case it's possible the Overton Window may finally be shifting back leftward on race and history regarding the Civil War.

Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by core-questions on Monday October 26, 2020 @02:57PM (#24899775)
Good points. I'm not American so my history of that era is spread pretty thin.

> it's possible the Overton Window may finally be shifting back leftward on race and history regarding the Civil War.

I think that the 1965 Hart Cellar Immigration Act began a leftward push on that front that has not really experienced meaningful pushback at all beyond a few small groups publicly acknowledging the quietly-held discomfort of a very large segment of the population.

Confederate statues and the defense thereof are just one of many small ways in which White Americans have tried to retain some sense of identity as their culture is perhaps irrevocably changed beneath them. Some try to make it all about slavery, but if you actually read what the more erudite examples of these folks think it's much more nuanced than that.

Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by La1n on Monday October 26, 2020 @02:58PM (#24899799)
And compared to most other countries the US overton window is still very right on economics and foreign policy. Socialised health care, or economically left wing politics are still not mainstream and acceptable. Anything other than pure capitalism is called socialist, and socialist/communist is a term that can be career death for a politician.
Re:Twitter still hasn't unlocked the New York Post's account by core-questions on Monday October 26, 2020 @06:22PM (#24902214)
> the US overton window is still very right on economics and foreign policy.

Yes! It's amazing. I don't think there will ever be some magical set of axes that allows a really clear quantification of where the US is at. The problem, of course, is that because of the false dichotomy of choices (R vs D) you can't actually vote for foreign policy decisions at all. It's not even a topic of debate, really!

Essentially, the USA continues to have a relatively hawkish position, continues to fund under-reported foreign wars (e.g. in Yemen presently), continues to be a destabilizing entity in many ways, often to the benefit of countries more closely allied to the USA (Saudi Arabia, Israel, etc) at the expense of smaller and less powerful nations. It's very confusing, full of misdirections, and impossible for any normal person to follow.

Most Americans want fewer foreign wars, I think. Most Americans (surprisingly including a large and growing swathe of the working class right-wing, believe it or not) are open to the idea of social healthcare in one form or another.

Large moneyed interests make these efforts impossible to take on politically, though, and whenever public opinion could be useful to influence actions on the issue, you'll see more false dichotomies form, meta-layers of fractally nested infighting designed to make it so people get hung up on stupid things and debate that instead of the real issue (huge lobby groups intent on acting as middlemen in every transaction to wring every last dollar out of people for no benefit to them whatsoever).