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Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by mabbo on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:40PM (#24891210)
There's a strange incentive for cities.

On the one hand, they could be doing this kind of work themselves to save their citizens, who they theoretically are there to represent, money. On the other hand, these parking tickets are clearly a huge source of money if one bad corner can generate $100,000 per year in tickets (based on a 50% reduction being a $60,000 reduction).

Parking tickets aren't meant to be an income stream, they're meant to be a disincentive program to ensure certain goals are met.

Imagine if each major city had a small department consisting of a couple of data engineers, a UX designer, and a sociologist, all working together on programs like preventing parking tickets. I wonder what other avenues such a team could attack to help citizens.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by TeMPOraL on Monday October 26, 2020 @04:18AM (#24893864)
I feel it should be some kind of rule that money collected in fines should never go to the organizations responsible for setting up the fines and enforcing them. It should instead go into something completely unrelated, and preferably geographically separated or distributed.

The city wouldn't have perverse incentives around parking tickets if all the money from them went straight into national healthcare budget, or foreign aid.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by wdr1 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @11:49PM (#24892675)
Chicago already sold the rights to enforce its parking meters for 75 years. There's now a private company running all of them.

https://www.bettergov.org/news/chicagos-parking-meter-deal-a...

https://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/us/20cncmeters.html

https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2010/10/why-doe...

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by gok on Monday October 26, 2020 @02:25AM (#24893301)
Chicago sold the rights to parking fees and meter operation. Enforcement is still done by the city, and fines go to the city budget.
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by tptacek on Monday October 26, 2020 @01:00AM (#24892962)
I think there's something to this. Leaving aside the sophomore dorm room discussion about whether public bodies should consider fines as revenues streams: when I did a similar analysis (with Matt's help) in the village I live in, I found a multiple-orders-of-magnitude difference in attributable fees between the lowest-fined blocks and the highest-fined blocks; the more heavily ticketed block brought in 5 figures of revenue (that's a lot, for Oak Park). Something is going on there! It should be incumbent on the village to figure out why that's happening, and how to keep it from happening.

(Like Matt, I also found that if you look at the raw data, you'll find citations that are facially invalid; in my case, I found "overnight parking" citations issued in the middle of the day --- 50+ of them).

Last thought: I don't know about the state you live in, but in Illinois it is shockingly easy to FOIA a public body, and the law is to an extraordinary extent on your side. I just flattened Oak Park in a FOIA dispute with just a couple of emails. If you live in a state with Illinois-or-better FOIA (short statutory time window for public bodies to respond, fee recovery for successful legal challenges), you're almost certainly not FOIA'ing enough.

Also, if you're in Illinois: please FOIA your local police general orders, and let me know when you get them; I'm collecting them.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by probably_wrong on Monday October 26, 2020 @03:29AM (#24893625)
> if you look at the raw data, you'll find citations that are facially invalid; in my case, I found "overnight parking" citations issued in the middle of the day

I am usually unwilling to accept that something is foul play until I have exhausted all other explanations, and your comment triggered my "but what if?" sense.

I can imagine, for instance, that a car is found with plenty of leaves underneath in a city where the street cleaning shows up in the morning. Or that a traffic cop sees the exact same three cars in the exact same position both at the end of their shift and in the middle of the day the next day.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by SiempreViernes on Monday October 26, 2020 @07:38AM (#24895024)
Or more likely, there was a network error one week and they had to manually input all the citations during the day, so the creation date is simply wrong.
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by tptacek on Monday October 26, 2020 @03:41PM (#24900398)
Doesn't matter. They can't write the ticket if they don't observe the car parked between 11 and 6AM.
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by Terretta on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @12:22PM (#24920629)
I've observed parking enforcement using a wax stick to mark tire and curb, or pausing to write tickets when already marked and aligned.

Probability of the marks remaining and aligning midday next day if the car was gone overnight seems vanishingly small.

Low tech, maybe not definitive, but still hard to argue with.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by hawaiianbrah on Monday October 26, 2020 @01:46AM (#24893150)
What do you mean you flattened them in a dispute?
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by a3n on Sunday October 25, 2020 @09:09PM (#24891826)
<curmudgeon>

Parking and traffic tickets are a way to increase revenue while still being able to say "We didn't raise taxes."

</curmudgeon>

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by edmundsauto on Sunday October 25, 2020 @09:13PM (#24891844)
Without parking tickets, it would not be possible to park at many local businesses in cities. The parking enforcement is crucial to make sure the spots turn over.
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by mixmastamyk on Sunday October 25, 2020 @10:39PM (#24892368)
The problem is whose pocket the fine ends up in? If it went to charity the city wouldn't be so incentivized.
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by weareallcowards on Monday October 26, 2020 @12:39AM (#24892876)
It would be nice if the fines went to the people who are harmed by illegal parking. Businesses could claim income from tickets issued in front of their stores, and homeowners/renters could share the income from tickets issued on the streets they live on.

It would be too inefficient and fraud-prone to actually work, but it's a nice idea.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by dvdkhlng on Monday October 26, 2020 @04:06AM (#24893816)
"Harm" is difficult to assess in some cases. What about the bunch of school children who faced a higher than normal probability of traffic accident because somebody illegally parked near a pedestrian crossing? You can't really claim losses against somebody who endangered your life, before anybody is hurt. Maybe that's what fines are for...
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by weareallcowards on Monday October 26, 2020 @04:58AM (#24894083)
Easy: you issue fines paid to the school such that they'll earn whatever a student's life is worth within the expected time period of a student dying from an illegally-parked car. Then you can mandate that the schools put the proceeds into a fund for the affected families.

That would be an efficient use of resources. This whole "law-making" thing isn't hard at all, what do they do all day in Congress?

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by brewdad on Sunday October 25, 2020 @10:59PM (#24892467)
The City of Seattle Foundation would like to explore your ideas.
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by mixmastamyk on Monday October 26, 2020 @02:02PM (#24899082)
Oh, with my input, or in general?
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by AmericanChopper on Sunday October 25, 2020 @08:30PM (#24891531)
I believe the term is perverse incentive. Parking fines are supposed to incentivize compliance from road users. The perverse element is that they incentivize local governments to generate as much non-compliance as possible.

Any time a government has a profit motive to enforce the law against its citizens you end up with corruption, it’s the same basic reason that civil asset forfeiture is such a big problem.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by ldiracdelta on Sunday October 25, 2020 @08:37PM (#24891591)
I've been to HOA meetings where they talk about fines as "revenue" as if they should be maximizing that "revenue". Disgusting.
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by michaelmrose on Sunday October 25, 2020 @11:42PM (#24892641)
Which is probably why non governmental entities should exist to pay for and manage resources like parks not define laws or levy fines.
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by AmericanChopper on Monday October 26, 2020 @12:28AM (#24892830)
I don’t think there’s necessarily an issue with giving fines. As I see it the issue comes from the profit motive, which is a lot more complicated to solve than it might first appear. You could do something like give the fine revenue away in a lottery to charities, but even then you’d still have some issues.

The other side of that argument is that the payment of the fine to the government is supposed to play a restorative role in whatever crime you have committed against the community. But I don’t think there’s a way to operate a system like that that does lead to this type of corruption.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by michaelmrose on Monday October 26, 2020 @12:56AM (#24892943)
This is ill considered an entity exists to enrich itself and its management fines allowed by law and enacted by policy are trivially turned by majority vote to self enrichment.

Your idea fine in theory will be enacted by no substantial proportion of such institutions while banning such locally at the municipality, county, or state might in theory be at least possible to implement.

We can easily force these orgs to stop collecting fines we cannot stop government using fines to control behavior. Your ideas therefore are much more applicable to government than to this situation even if the same challenges apply.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by aww_dang on Sunday October 25, 2020 @11:33PM (#24892606)
Imagine if they took the opposite approach. Imagine cities hiring dark pattern UX designers on a commission/revenue sharing basis or with performance bonuses.

Think of the revenue city governments could raise if they combined that with, "If you see something, say something". Portions of the fines could be paid to snitches in the interest of public safety.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by chrisin2d on Monday October 26, 2020 @06:53AM (#24894742)
As a UX designer, I agree on the point that cities need a UX designer (or several...) to make civic information visible, legible, and navigable.

I lived in the Chicago area, same as the author. In Chicago, parking signs read as if/else-if/else-if/else sequences that are annoying to parse while driving. The 'design process' (or whatever process manifested these signs) clearly had city processes but not users in mind.

In downtown Chicago, you can find yourself endlessly circling blocks in your car looking for a free spot, attempting to interpret contradicting parking signs, while some driver closely tails behind you impatiently. The street parking experience is very user-hostile.

The author points out a confusing spot between 1100N and 1166N State Street that has three signs on one pole. Such is a common occurrence.

https://goo.gl/maps/do93fXNdTnb1driQ7 Here, on the same pole there are two seemingly contradicting signs: one with a green circled P and another with a red crossed-out P, both with small arrows pointing in the same direction. There's a pay box and another pay to park sign. You the driver have 1–3 seconds to react and decide: do you risk it (it says tow zone... but it also says pay to park and there's a pay box right there!) or do you try the next street over (but this is already your 5th block and you're running late for your appointment)?

You could have sign wombo-combos that go like:

1. "Pay to park, 7 days a week" — okay, seems like you can park

2. "No stopping, no standing [A]am-[B]am, [C]pm-[D]pm, Mon-Fri" — oh, what time is it exactly? And today is a Monday, right?

3. "Street Cleaning, 1st Monday of the Month, [X]am-[Y]am, 1 Oct-1 Apr" — and which Monday of the month is today?

and so on. Exceptions upon exceptions upon exceptions.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by pishpash on Monday October 26, 2020 @01:47AM (#24893156)
That's naive. If they didn't want it to be a pure source of revenue they would have structured it that way. You can solve these misaligned incentives by requiring behavioral fines be revenue neutral: you get an annual pro rata rebate of what the city receives from the program, less administrative costs. In other words, you get paid, for relatively more encouraged behavior.

This is why I am dead set against every congestion pricing program I've seen. It's not that the concept is wrong, but that its implementation is always another, unvoted-for tax.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by throwaway9980 on Sunday October 25, 2020 @07:44PM (#24891244)
If this were applied across the entire US or even a large state, it would be very interesting and useful to track city responsiveness to the request to fix these issues. You might infer that those that address the problem against the incentive of filling their coffers are good places to live. Well, at least one more datapoint to consider.
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by justaguyhere on Monday October 26, 2020 @08:15AM (#24895267)
Parking tickets aren't meant to be an income stream

Some DMVs are selling customer data to private companies. People who are supposed to wear ankle bracelets are charged rent by private companies with govt contracts to do so. Those are just two examples that I could think of, without even googling. They are gonna do whatever they can, for revenue.

A good percentage of the population believes government should be run like a business, without understanding the implications. Also people don't like taxes, even justified ones. All this leads parking tickets style situations.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by say_it_as_it_is on Monday October 26, 2020 @06:17AM (#24894514)
The reality is that fines are an important source of revenue at every level of government in America. They are a politically acceptable alternative to raising taxes.

I sometimes think about what government will do when autonomous cars take away a key revenue source and decided that it will invent new problems to fine. Taxation is avoided at all costs.

Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by colejohnson66 on Monday October 26, 2020 @09:34AM (#24895978)
I’ve wondered that too. What’ll happen to speeding tickets when every car is autonomous/self-driving and could just be programmed to not go over the limit? In theory, we could go one step further and remove speed limits from autonomous-only roads as the cars would be smart enough (in theory) to know what speed and distance is safe. But that last part is a pipe dream it seems.
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by gadders on Monday October 26, 2020 @07:40AM (#24895029)
We have the strange situation in the UK where local councils simultaneously a) complain that the high street is "dying" due to out of town supermarkets and ecommrce and b) enforce draconian parking policies on the high street they are getting people to use.
Re:Using FOIA Data and Unix to halve major source of parking... by rhizome on Monday October 26, 2020 @12:10AM (#24892759)
Because they've been cowed away from imposing enough taxes and/or budget discipline to run the cities.