I do browser-based screensharing (of both individual windows and the whole screen), I have a mixed DPI monitor setup, I've played games on Steam, &c. I need no workarounds. GNOME just works.
About the only things I don't use are nvidia's crappy drivers.
Hope it works out for you.
1. Gaming. Just about nobody games on Linux with nVidia. Most people I know who game (from Linux) with nVidia GPUs use PCI passthrough to a guest VM running Windows. Very few use nVidia GPUs on their host system. My primary setup is a 2950x/128GB DDR4/Vega 56/2080 Super -- the latter goes to kvm exclusively.
2. "Research" such as machine learning. You don't need Wayland or X11 for this, and the proprietary drivers work the best. To be honest, this is a space where Ubuntu Server performs best. I keep one of these around in a VM (see above) for this purpose. (Mining also goes in this category)
Everything else can probably be done with an Intel or AMD GPU tbh.
I guess I'm the oddball here. 95% of my gaming is native Steam Linux apps on my Kubuntu box with a GTX1060 6GB.
GamingOnLinux stats — AMD GPU 40% and raising.
https://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?module=statistics&vi...
Anyone who wants stable, performant GPU today can buy AMD. Future is here. That's Wayland target.
I live in the past — Intel GPU, X.Org, xmonad. I've thought to wait a few more years but I've checked Sway, it works. I'll check waymonad, maybe it works, maybe I'll make it work.
Wayland GNOME and KDE works with NVIDIA.
Strange point, it should have been burned 10 years ago than. I use X.Org, works perfectly in Arch Linux, some claim problems on in their distribution. It should be critique of that distribution.
> Chromium is making its first shy bumbling steps towards actually working on Wayland
And Firefox support is behind MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 flag. Clearly Wayland is in "early adopters" stage. Early adopters should not whine.
> By the same logic, anyone can say that the direction they're taking is bad.
You've clearly not watched presentation. Some people know better than developer of that technology. It would be insult on my job. I've had enough people stating "technical debt is not real".
> Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You
Open source is nothing like Google deprecating its services, anyone can run code, but it is naive to expect free indefinite support.
Truth is you are not going to maintain X.Org.
yes.
Surely that fulfills both contribution and prediction.
I therefore disagree with your characterization.
Now, he appears to have been wrong, but just like preachers may be wrong, critics may also be right even without contribution.
He knew Bible and he was right by his interpretation of Bible. In programming world word is reality, there is only one meaning. Those who know word forge reality. This requires knowledge.
Critics who do not posses knowledge appeal to emotions, spread FUD. They may be right by coincidence like standing clocks.
Because I think you used it wrong.
I've described context. You've confirmed it. Statement supported not by fact but by inner voice. My morale stems from Christianity, I believe Enlightenment got it right — discovery of nature is discovery of God. I've been to church, I've seen priest who shared joy. I've seen other priests, I would rather not see them.
X.Org developer described what's wrong with the project [1]. Not one of the Wayland critiques addressed his points. They have no facts, they just want it to fail. Those who work hard and share for free get anger in return. Sway / wlroots maintainer (ddevault) got off the edge from this misinformation and I do not agree with him but I am not maintainer either. Where is love and God in this story?
> That’s not even considering any personal goals, which I have vanishingly little time for. I get zero exercise, and though my diet is mostly reasonable the majority of it is delivery unless I get the odd 2 hours to visit the grocery store. That is, unless I want to spend those 2 hours with my friends, which means it’s back to delivery. My dating life is almost nonexistent. I want to spend more time studying Japanese, but it’s either that or keeping up with my leisure reading. Lofty goals of also studying Chinese or Arabic are but dust in the wind. I’m addicted to caffeine, again.
> Less healthy ways have included walking to the corner store to buy unhealthy comfort foods, consuming alcohol or weed too much or too often, getting in stupid internet arguments, being mean to my friends and colleagues, and googling myself to read negative comments. [3]
That's story behind Linux infrastructure. Because of such work I have Linux and I am grateful for it, but no mob wants to finish them.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ
[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24896917
[3] https://drewdevault.com/2020/01/21/Stress-and-happiness.html
Which is why I think it's the wrong term, and why utxaa was confused.
Your link to Google for a dictionary definition says:
1) deliver a sermon or religious address to an assembled group of people, typically in church.
This wasn't a sermon or religious address, and HN isn't church.
2) publicly proclaim or teach (a religious message or belief).
Okay, so posting a comment on HN is public, which means we're all preaching? This doesn't seem what you mean.
3) earnestly advocate (a belief or course of action).
This is the closest. However, "this is all going to end in X12" seem far from earnest advocacy.
Your own comments seem far more earnest - are you not also preaching?
It's far easier for me to believe you simply used the wrong term.
sure pal, you got it.
* print is function
* string is unicode by default
Should have been clean and easy migration path
# python 2
from __future__ import print_function
print(u"foo")
u"" # was u""
b"" # was ""
Python 3.0.0 Dec. 3, 2008
Python 3.3.0 Sept. 29, 2012
Ruby 1.8.7 2008-05-31
Ruby 1.9.1 2009-01-30 # first 1.9
Ruby 1.9.2 2010-08-18 # people already switched to 1.9
Ruby 2.0.0 2013-02-24 # first 2.0
Ruby 1.8.7-p352 2013-06-27 # last 1.8
How specifically Wayland harms you? I've opened GTK+ tutorial [5], compiled code, works both on X.Org and Wayland. How it is not clean migration path?
And no, it is not XWayland which is additional migration path, I've removed it for this test:
$ xterm
xterm: Xt error: Can't open display: :1
[2] https://www.python.org/downloads/
[3] https://medium.com/rubycademy/the-evolution-of-ruby-strings-...
[4] https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/downloads/releases/
[5] https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/gtk-getting-started....
Sorry, have you tried to maintain a C extension for both 2/3? Or a unicode heavy application?
This is a silly statement, there's a reason that major packages took a decade to migrate. There are thousands of little details that are incompatible.
Nothing required big 2/3 change. Ruby and Go done it right — a series of small changes. Python 2.* had it right. The attitude of language developers was clearly stated in PEP 414 and 2to3 approach — no backward compatibility. That is nonsense, every python program had backward compatibility several minor versions deep.
Select one issue and work on it. Unicode:
# python prev
u"" # or from __future__ import unicode_literals
b""
# python next
u""
b"" # or from __past__ import binary_literals
Wayland transition is nothing like Python 2/3. It is big but mostly invisible, XWayland runs X11 applications, toolkits hide implementation details, no X.Org deprecation.
The situation with wayland migration seem to be somewhat similar with the python 3 migration. Many gui apps that uses gui toolkit probably don't need major modification, or no modification at all. But some apps that requires platform-specific access are heavily affected and might require some major refactor, and they probably won't do it until the benefit of migrating to wayland outweigh staying on xorg.
Also, unlike python 3 migration where most of the community agree that the move is justifiable will have to happen eventually, in the case of wayland migration, the community opinion seem to be split which certainly harm wayland migration progress.
$ python3.2
Python 3.2.6 (default, Oct 26 2020, 15:29:09)
[GCC 10.2.0] on linux2
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> u"foo"
File "<stdin>", line 1
u"foo"
^
SyntaxError: invalid syntax
$ python3
Python 3.8.6 (default, Sep 30 2020, 04:00:38)
[GCC 10.2.0] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
>>> u"foo"
'foo'
> Django 1.5 introduces support for Python 3 - specifically, Python 3.2 and above.
Notice version gap — no support for 3.0, 3.1. It was quite common.
> python 3 migration where most of the community agree that the move is justifiable
If people believed breaking change was justified they would move to 3.0, it did not happen.
I've seen both Python and Ruby community, Ruby made two breaking changes (1.9 and 2.0) while Python got its PEP 414. There was a huge split among developers.
---
Essentially you are describing how switch happened while I'm describing which lessons should have been learned. It is sad if Python community learned nothing.
> the community opinion seem to be split which certainly harm wayland migration progress.
Developers done great job, you can't run 2.7 code in 3.*, you can run X11 applications in XWayland. Is there a split in developers community? All I see is FUD among users.
[1] https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/3.1/releases/1.5/#python-3...
$ sudo pacman -Rs xorg-server-xwayland
I've been Python developer at that time, the writing was on the wall. They have not provided migration path. PEP 414 "Complaint: This PEP may harm adoption of Python 3.2" [3], this is insane. Community voted with feet — they've stayed with Python 2 until clean migration path arrived. I've switched to Ruby and been happy since.
Ruby 1.8.7 was supported for five years.
You had to write Python 2 code and run 2to3, you had to live in the past or abandon it.
[1] https://raku.org/archive/doc/apocalypse.html
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Python#Features
From what i understand there are commits, just not releases. What is the point of committing if the maintainers do not bother to make a proper release that your work can be distributed to the users?
[1] https://github.com/freedesktop/xorg-xserver/graphs/commit-ac...
So why aren't release being made?
> The primary development code repository can be found at:
> https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver
Quite a lot of issues.
[0] https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/issues/1092
> Xorg xserver above 1.20.8-3 crashes when using displaylink/evdi
> Applications do not repaint in a timely fashion, resulting in screen corruption
> xorg-x11-server quit unexpectedly on windows resize
> x11-base/xorg-server-1.20.8-r1 crashes
> Xorg crashes after unlocking with lightdm
> Input events can be sent for disabled device, crashing GTK and mutter
> when ubuntu runing Virtualbox, Ctal+Alt+F1 Ctal+Alt+F17 switch cause memleak
> Server crash at startup
> Delay and black screen when the screen is rotated.
> xorg-server-1.20.9 crash on startup
1. The old, mostly working thing waits your commit
2. That new thing can have some help too
I recommend developers story about this "mostly working thing" (2014) [1]. It is quite fun and eye opening, he clearly knows his subject better than most of the comments.
Wayland demo worked almost from day one. I've run it in 2010 [2]. But we need applications, that is migrating toolkits and this took 10 years.
It is very toxic development culture, cancel culture, mob.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ
[2] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=858020#p858020