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Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by krageon on Monday October 26, 2020 @07:01AM (#24894807)
Saying Wayland is just non-functional for reasonable use-cases without significant user workarounds (usually going back a decade in execution and clarity) isn't toxic culture, it's the truth. Yes, people can work on what they want. By the same logic, anyone can say that the direction they're taking is bad.
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by cipherboy on Monday October 26, 2020 @09:41AM (#24896038)
I strongly disagree. Since switching to Fedora almost 4 years ago, I've only booted to X.org once, three years ago. I haven't needed it since.

I do browser-based screensharing (of both individual windows and the whole screen), I have a mixed DPI monitor setup, I've played games on Steam, &c. I need no workarounds. GNOME just works.

About the only things I don't use are nvidia's crappy drivers.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by phone8675309 on Monday October 26, 2020 @11:19AM (#24897088)
nVidia is the overwhelming leader in GPUs that people care about, so if you don't mind excluding the majority then it sounds like a great direction.

Hope it works out for you.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by cipherboy on Monday October 26, 2020 @12:11PM (#24897700)
You've got two primary use cases for nVidia's GPUs:

1. Gaming. Just about nobody games on Linux with nVidia. Most people I know who game (from Linux) with nVidia GPUs use PCI passthrough to a guest VM running Windows. Very few use nVidia GPUs on their host system. My primary setup is a 2950x/128GB DDR4/Vega 56/2080 Super -- the latter goes to kvm exclusively.

2. "Research" such as machine learning. You don't need Wayland or X11 for this, and the proprietary drivers work the best. To be honest, this is a space where Ubuntu Server performs best. I keep one of these around in a VM (see above) for this purpose. (Mining also goes in this category)

Everything else can probably be done with an Intel or AMD GPU tbh.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by CapricornNoble on Monday October 26, 2020 @02:34PM (#24899488)
>>>1. Gaming. Just about nobody games on Linux with nVidia.

I guess I'm the oddball here. 95% of my gaming is native Steam Linux apps on my Kubuntu box with a GTX1060 6GB.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by vlowther on Monday October 26, 2020 @02:31PM (#24899425)
The GPU stats at https://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?module=statistics&vi... disagree with your first point. A few years ago I did all of my gaming direct on Linux with an nVidia GPU, and did so for over a decade, on various laptops with and without mixed Intel/nVidia GPU setups.
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Monday October 26, 2020 @12:03PM (#24897616)
There is nothing Wayland can do about "nvidia's crappy drivers".

GamingOnLinux stats — AMD GPU 40% and raising.

https://www.gamingonlinux.com/index.php?module=statistics&vi...

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by phone8675309 on Monday October 26, 2020 @03:08PM (#24899943)
40% is still less than the majority, and Wayland chose to break compatibility with X11 drivers, so they get to own half of this breakage
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Monday October 26, 2020 @03:58PM (#24900611)
I expect they do not target world domination.

Anyone who wants stable, performant GPU today can buy AMD. Future is here. That's Wayland target.

I live in the past — Intel GPU, X.Org, xmonad. I've thought to wait a few more years but I've checked Sway, it works. I'll check waymonad, maybe it works, maybe I'll make it work.

Wayland GNOME and KDE works with NVIDIA.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/wayland#Requirements

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Monday October 26, 2020 @07:05AM (#24894830)
I believe you assert that Wayland failure is that is not ready for end user.

Strange point, it should have been burned 10 years ago than. I use X.Org, works perfectly in Arch Linux, some claim problems on in their distribution. It should be critique of that distribution.

> Chromium is making its first shy bumbling steps towards actually working on Wayland

And Firefox support is behind MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 flag. Clearly Wayland is in "early adopters" stage. Early adopters should not whine.

> By the same logic, anyone can say that the direction they're taking is bad.

You've clearly not watched presentation. Some people know better than developer of that technology. It would be insult on my job. I've had enough people stating "technical debt is not real".

> Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You

Open source is nothing like Google deprecating its services, anyone can run code, but it is naive to expect free indefinite support.

Truth is you are not going to maintain X.Org.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by utxaa on Monday October 26, 2020 @09:14AM (#24895789)
this is all going to end in X12.
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by pzone on Monday October 26, 2020 @11:05AM (#24896922)
Wayland is X12.
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Monday October 26, 2020 @09:53AM (#24896150)
you would preach but you would not contribute
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by ubercow13 on Monday October 26, 2020 @09:59AM (#24896216)
I don't see anything wrong with that.
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by utxaa on Monday October 26, 2020 @05:47PM (#24901883)
you mean i would predict but not contribute?

yes.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @02:26AM (#24904910)
no, like in "preach the end of the world", contribution and prediction requires intimate knowledge, preaching does not
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by eesmith on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @09:16AM (#24907078)
My grandfather was a preacher and a millennialist, which means he thought the world would end soon. He based this out of his intimate knowledge of the Bible, spanning over 60 years of study. He was also a missionary who starting churches and had a radio show.

Surely that fulfills both contribution and prediction.

I therefore disagree with your characterization.

Now, he appears to have been wrong, but just like preachers may be wrong, critics may also be right even without contribution.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @11:38AM (#24908451)
I am sorry for your grandfather.

He knew Bible and he was right by his interpretation of Bible. In programming world word is reality, there is only one meaning. Those who know word forge reality. This requires knowledge.

Critics who do not posses knowledge appeal to emotions, spread FUD. They may be right by coincidence like standing clocks.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by eesmith on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @04:07PM (#24911249)
What one meaning does "preach" have in the programming world?

Because I think you used it wrong.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Tuesday October 27, 2020 @05:49PM (#24912337)
https://www.google.com/search?q=preach

I've described context. You've confirmed it. Statement supported not by fact but by inner voice. My morale stems from Christianity, I believe Enlightenment got it right — discovery of nature is discovery of God. I've been to church, I've seen priest who shared joy. I've seen other priests, I would rather not see them.

X.Org developer described what's wrong with the project [1]. Not one of the Wayland critiques addressed his points. They have no facts, they just want it to fail. Those who work hard and share for free get anger in return. Sway / wlroots maintainer (ddevault) got off the edge from this misinformation and I do not agree with him but I am not maintainer either. Where is love and God in this story?

> That’s not even considering any personal goals, which I have vanishingly little time for. I get zero exercise, and though my diet is mostly reasonable the majority of it is delivery unless I get the odd 2 hours to visit the grocery store. That is, unless I want to spend those 2 hours with my friends, which means it’s back to delivery. My dating life is almost nonexistent. I want to spend more time studying Japanese, but it’s either that or keeping up with my leisure reading. Lofty goals of also studying Chinese or Arabic are but dust in the wind. I’m addicted to caffeine, again.

> Less healthy ways have included walking to the corner store to buy unhealthy comfort foods, consuming alcohol or weed too much or too often, getting in stupid internet arguments, being mean to my friends and colleagues, and googling myself to read negative comments. [3]

That's story behind Linux infrastructure. Because of such work I have Linux and I am grateful for it, but no mob wants to finish them.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24896917

[3] https://drewdevault.com/2020/01/21/Stress-and-happiness.html

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by eesmith on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @01:04AM (#24915426)
My observation is that "preach" is orthogonal to contribution.

Which is why I think it's the wrong term, and why utxaa was confused.

Your link to Google for a dictionary definition says:

1) deliver a sermon or religious address to an assembled group of people, typically in church.

This wasn't a sermon or religious address, and HN isn't church.

2) publicly proclaim or teach (a religious message or belief).

Okay, so posting a comment on HN is public, which means we're all preaching? This doesn't seem what you mean.

3) earnestly advocate (a belief or course of action).

This is the closest. However, "this is all going to end in X12" seem far from earnest advocacy.

Your own comments seem far more earnest - are you not also preaching?

It's far easier for me to believe you simply used the wrong term.

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @04:42PM (#24923897)
"preach the end of the world" does not contribute to the facts based world. Even if you don't agree with that I'm fine to end this discussion.
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by utxaa on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @04:07PM (#24923536)
why do you assume i don't know what i'm talking about?
Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by sergeykish on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @04:43PM (#24923911)
Please address [1] or you don't know what you are talking about. Similar point in next post [2].

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24922936

Re:The X.Org Server Is Abandonware? by utxaa on Wednesday October 28, 2020 @06:27PM (#24924852)
i either address [1] or i don't know what i'm talking about?

sure pal, you got it.