News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by new_realist on Saturday October 24, 2020 @04:15PM (#24881665)
These days, many computers only run authorized software, and trusted boot is fairly secure. They’re integrated hardware/software systems. This article is out of date, and a bit biased, to boot.
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by bigbubba on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:05PM (#24881950)
Biased in favor of empowering individuals, rather than making them serfs under corporate landlords? What's wrong with such a bias?
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by shadowgovt on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:57PM (#24882235)
We lived under that model, and it sucks for a lot of people.

Barons also provided for the common defense. An unlocked software architecture and untrusted code leaves people at the mercy of hackers, it doesn't empower the average user.

We can do that defense of users better than we're doing right now, by divorcing the trust model from the paid vendor model, but it's worth noting how we got here in the first place and why where we are now is better for a lot of people than where we were. If we can't recognize that, it's hard to make a value proposition that people will actually sign on to.

Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by Silhouette on Saturday October 24, 2020 @06:43PM (#24882489)
An unlocked software architecture and untrusted code leaves people at the mercy of hackers, it doesn't empower the average user.

There are other solutions to this problem that do not involve surrendering control over everything that matters to corporate interests that may coincidentally align with your own sometimes.

For example, do we really think a corporation primarily motivated by making its profits is going to be habitually careful about software security? We know this is not often the case, because the quality of so much software produced by big businesses today is terrible in terms of security. What is more telling is that it continues to be terrible even though we are well aware of methods to mitigate many of those vulnerabilities. But those methods usually require more skill and/or more time to get right, and typically that means greater up-front costs, and since it turns out that Joe User will often put up with junk security and pay good money for the software anyway, the profit incentive does not have the outcome we would like.

Note that this doesn't necessarily mean Joe likes the poor security. He might be willing to use the tech anyway because he values what he gets from it more than he believes the dangers are costing him, or because he believes the dangers are inherent in the tech and unavoidable, or because he just doesn't realise the dangers are there in the first place.

This can be solved in a number of ways, but most of them come down to showing people that it's possible to do better by writing software that actually does better, and given the lack of commercial incentives coming from above, the most likely place we'll see that is in community efforts. Those efforts don't even have to result in some sort of openly developed software that dominates its market to succeed here, just to make it obvious to enough normal people that they don't need to accept substandard junk and they should demand better in return for their money.

Much the same argument can be applied to issues like privacy, repairable and upgradeable hardware, open standards for data portability, freely programmable devices, and no doubt many more. If competition in the commercial markets isn't getting the job done, yet we know doing the job is possible, it's up to those of us with the knowledge and skills to push things forward for now. That could mean directly creating better hardware and software, educating our less skilled and experienced peers to improve standards in the industry and make hiring better people less expensive, or simply educating users and pushing for higher standards from the customer's side.

Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by Qwertious on Saturday October 24, 2020 @09:37PM (#24883217)
"For example, do we really think a corporation primarily motivated by making its profits is going to be habitually careful about software security?"

Yes. It's the monarchy argument - Apple focuses on security because they own the ecosystem, so they're hurting themselves and there's no-one else left for Apple to blame if they screw it up.

Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by Silhouette on Saturday October 24, 2020 @09:44PM (#24883239)
Let me know when everything on iCloud is fully end-to-end encrypted. Until then, Apple are still knowingly compromising security in the interests of other priorities.

Maybe those priorities are well-intentioned, helping to make sure their customers don't lose access to precious photos because they lost some important key. Maybe they are driven by more nefarious motives, such as the endless rumours of government interventions. It doesn't really matter, because the gaping security vulnerability is there all the same, and much of what Apple does actively pushes users into it, and at the same time Apple makes a big deal about the security and privacy of its devices.

At least if you are technically inclined you can read their more technical documentation to understand what is really happening, which is to their credit. But it seems likely that most people potentially affected by that vulnerability won't have done so.

Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by shadowgovt on Sunday October 25, 2020 @12:57PM (#24887727)
Full end-to-end encryption bumps up against Apple's second goal of user friendliness. If the data they store is encrypted with a key that you and only you own, and you lose that key, they can't help you as a user.

This may be surprising, but a lot of users don't accept that as an answer and find this to be a less valuable business model than one where the trusted vendor has skeleton keys.

Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by Silhouette on Sunday October 25, 2020 @02:19PM (#24888559)
Sure, and maybe that's a reasonable position to take commercially, though I note that Apple does use end-to-end encryption for various specific categories of data on iCloud so the argument about being user-friendly with recovery options is not without its weaknesses.

In any case, iCloud still isn't fully secure, and Apple isn't very honest about that in its marketing. It also doesn't give those users who do value security and privacy more highly the opportunity to use iCloud with real security, while simultaneously making it unnecessarily difficult to transfer data using other, more secure methods.

As one potential alternative for discussion, you could instead construct a system where users had the option of keeping keys entirely under their control, with suitable backup options, or of creating an online emergency recovery system where partial key data was given to Y trusted friends and recovering that data from any X out of those Y would be sufficient to reconstruct the key. Each friend need only know that they are agreeing to be an emergency keyholder for someone, and no-one else other than the original user and the keyholder need know that the relationship even exists.

The UI for a system like that could be extremely simple. Turn on the emergency recovery system. Identify a list of friends you want to trust. They each get asked if they're willing to help, and you either get a list of people who all said yes or prompted to choose more people if anyone declined or couldn't be reached. Once you've got enough, everyone who is a trustee carries around a suitable fragment of the other keys on their own secure device(s) in exactly the same way that their own key is held.

Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by matheusmoreira on Saturday October 24, 2020 @04:24PM (#24881710)
It was published in 2012 though. Why do you say it is biased? I thought it was agreeable.
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by pessimizer on Saturday October 24, 2020 @06:39PM (#24882467)
> This article is out of date

Only if you're trying to say that the war is mostly over, and general purpose computing lost.

Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by johncolanduoni on Saturday October 24, 2020 @08:16PM (#24882898)
The general purpose computing doomsayers lost the average person caring whether they have a general purpose computer that they were never going to use as such anyway. They haven’t come within a light year of actually losing the ability to own devices that can run whatever code they want to.
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by pessimizer on Saturday October 24, 2020 @09:18PM (#24883140)
Yes, people don't even want to install software on their own devices, which is why it's so weird that companies spend so much time and effort preventing them from doing it.
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by wizzwizz4 on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:12PM (#24881994)
Authorised by whom?
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by salawat on Saturday October 24, 2020 @04:46PM (#24881841)
Not at all. Secure boot is opaque to most. Gigantic monolithic actors in the realm of hardware and software collude to keep the plebiscites from making anything too disruptive without them quickly running into an audit process that can be used to ensure that any virtue can be clean room redesigned by the monolith...

Yeah. Seems pretty prescient to me.

Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by twentydollars on Saturday October 24, 2020 @04:57PM (#24881904)
Could you elaborate in plain English? Your comment makes no sense to me.
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by raphlinus on Saturday October 24, 2020 @06:05PM (#24882279)
Here's my translation into simpler English, with the caveat that I'm only about 90% sure it captures the original intent:

The article is not biased or out of date at all. Most people can't figure out how to get around "secure boot" technology, which has the effect of locking people out. Big companies, both those that make hardware and software, work together to lock ordinary people out of creating alternatives. If an independent creator were to make something good, the big companies would just make their own version, that would be just as good for most users.

Yeah, this article seems like it accurately predicted the future when it was written.

Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by snerbles on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:04PM (#24881946)
Big guy keeps little guy out of mainstream hardware with threats of intellectual property litigation.
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by salawat on Saturday October 24, 2020 @09:52PM (#24883286)
Certainly. Which parts, forgive me for the long delay, was building a shed today. In order though...

>Secure Boot/Trusted Computing

This is an effort born out of seemingly benevolent intentions. Rootkits, a form of malware known for implanting themselves into a computer system before an Operating System even loads and persisting in various exotic ways were quite difficult to detect or do anything about. By applying various cryptographic verification techniques though, one can be sure that software being loaded or delegated to is actually the "original legit stuff".

The issue comes back to trust though. The community fought hard against a move that had been shaping up in the standardization of UEFI and secure boot to fight against entrenched industry actors being able to gatekeep or be the only holders of keys. The fear was that someone like Microsoft would utilize their position to remove a User's ability to load a cryptographically "unblessed" OS. Happily, User's can swap out that cryptographic material now, but many of the more arcane aspects to doing so on a system to system basis are poorly documented and difficult to discover. At least the desktop world seems to be pretty accesible, but the mobile world is a nightmare in regards to getting it up and running from the get go with minimal support and a modest home lab.

>Monolith's

The monoliths I speak of are tech giants. Microsoft, Apple, Google, Intel, Broadcom, Nvidia, etc. The different flavors of evil wrought vary by the particular actor. Apple and Google have used their role as gatekeepers to their App store as a means to tap into novel business verticals, or to be able to ensure that other app developers can be frustrated or otherwise managed by applications of arbitrary structure and standards. Things such as code signing requirements baked into the OS have created situations where now there is a barrier to entry of at least understanding cryptography and the tools around it (once considered a niche and unnecessary computer programming skill, now core). It also dissuaded and complicates the keyboard to pixel prochain even more intimidating. I expected that I could hand my child a smartphone sized computer to program and crash to get familiar with computing fundamentals, but the world has gone hard the other way. Frankly any place with an App store has. Most mobile system foundries or OEM's are notorious for locking down access to the implementation details of their silicon.

Nvidia, Microsoft, and even AMD's graphics divisions have earned a access to a special place of hatred in my mind over the two pronged efforts of collusion with the media industry through software driver and hardware implementations that make it absurdly difficult to drive one's own purchased graphics and coprocessor equipment as well as supporting abandoned hardware configurations. (I'm looking at you Sony, and your abandonment of the Nvidia GeForce 630M.)

All of this user hostility was absent when I was growing up. You had this machine where the only limit was what you had the documentation to read to know how to drive it. Nowadays, it seems everyone is more interested in shoving a microprocessor in things, but threatening with lawyer, anti-tamper, or absolution of themselves from having to provide any documentation to a buyer at all, of the responsibility to deliver to the user any constructive value, while at the same time, maximizing lock-in and recurring revenue streams. Look at HP printers nowadays for how microprocessors being inserted into the meta-logistical function of ink management makes user's life actively worse, where previously one was free to source one's ink from anywhere with nary a concern.

It's got to stop.

[dead]
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by bryanrasmussen on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:16PM (#24882022)
>Secure boot is opaque to most

Secure boot is a technical term that the poster might not be familiar with, but given we are on HN it might be assumed they can figure it out. Still, not really plain English.

>that can be used to ensure that any virtue can be clean room redesigned by the monolith...

is not plain English, clean room is piece of jargon that again, being on HN the poster might be familiar with but also not. And frankly saying that virtues can be clean room redesigned comes a little too close to the poetic to be considered plain as well. In fact the more I look at that the less sure I am that I can interpret it without the use of some small amount of psychedelics.

on edit: formatted

on edit 2: also I suppose the original poster meant plebeians, as plebiscites are things the plebeians vote in, not impossible to interpret, but it would make it more difficult.

Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by salawat on Sunday October 25, 2020 @12:53AM (#24883920)
Clean room, as in clean room reverse engineering. The practice of getting seasoned engineers to pick something apart, spec it out, and the hand it to a bunch of juniors to reimplement free of legal entanglements.
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by bigbubba on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:21PM (#24882057)
Secure boot and clean room? I figured they were thrown by 'plebiscite'.. I don't somebody will have much luck understanding a conversation on a technical discussion site about the war on general computing without knowing concepts basic to the premise.
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by bryanrasmussen on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:26PM (#24882078)
I guess my second edit and your response crossed each other.

There are lots of people on this site who have different levels of English, from different countries, and all of whom are not technical but might be interested in the details of a technical discussion because they work in a technology adjacent field.

I mean I often see lawyers, business owners and similar non-technical people taking part in discussions and hoping for some clarification so they can see how it relates to their field, which really a war on general computing really relates to consumer's rights.

Also I don't know that I consider clean room basic to the premise. More like, adjacent...

on edit: seems I like the word adjacent currently.

Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by FpUser on Saturday October 24, 2020 @06:04PM (#24882270)
>"..quickly running into an audit process that can be used to ensure that any virtue can be clean room redesigned by the monolith"

I do not think the part quoted qualifies as plain English

Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by walterbell on Saturday October 24, 2020 @04:31PM (#24881762)
Which article would you recommend on this topic?
Re:The Coming Civil War over General Purpose Computing (2012) by octoberfranklin on Saturday October 24, 2020 @05:04PM (#24881947)
https://reddit.com/r/StallmanWasRight/ ?

Joking, of course. Half-joking.