Chess’s Cheating Crisis

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by NikolaNovak on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:45AM (#24827399)

Part of it from my layman's perspective is that today, even home exercising frequently involves protein shakes. As you go into even basic body building or training, you start taking more and more "Stuff". There's no clear obvious intuitive big line between "natural talent and hard work" and "illegal chemical cheating". Reading the details of the tests involved a few years ago made me believe the line we draw is thin, porous, arbitrary and ever-changing.

The things we are testing for are not so much clear-cut presence or absence, but volumes and concentrations based on statistical curves, and it's a constant race so somebody who was "legit & natural last year" may be "doping and illegal this year" or vice versa; everybody will have SOME naturally or legally allowed amount of tested substance; etc. Which means that I cannot get excited that ANYbody at olympic level is doing it "on their own, unassisted, natural", for whatever definition of above we take.

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by dfxm12 on Monday October 19, 2020 @02:25PM (#24829284)

everybody will have SOME naturally or legally allowed amount of tested substance; etc. Which means that I cannot get excited that ANYbody at olympic level is doing it "on their own, unassisted, natural", for whatever definition of above we take.

But at that level, everyone is operating under the same rules. That's just the nature of competition, no? People will take any edge they can while following the letter of the law, if not the spirit.

Hell, even in the context of "on their own, unassisted", some countries directly support their Olympic athletes in terms of training, coaching and facilities, while other athletes have to pay out of pocket for that sort of thing and figure it out on their own and thus are more "unassisted", but there are no rules about that...

At the end of the day, all you can hope for is that the rules are applied justly & transparently.

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by llsf on Monday October 19, 2020 @04:02PM (#24830328)

I worked a swimming pool decades ago, and saw parents giving their pre-teen kids some drugs like Guronsan (https://www.drugs.com/international/guronsan.html) before swimming competition. It might be legal, but it was sending the wrong signal to those kids. That a pill could give them a boost or an edge.

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by hutzlibu on Monday October 19, 2020 @04:00PM (#24830306)

"But at that level, everyone is operating under the same rules"

No they are not. In reality it means, the athlete with the better chemist behind him, meaning the one with the not yet traceble substance, will win.

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by vokep on Monday October 19, 2020 @02:08PM (#24829057)

How are protein shakes and such 'stuff' at all approaching performance enhancing chemicals? Performance enhancing chemicals make the body do things it wouldn't normally do, directly modifying behavior to be different than it could be without that substance. Protein shakes are just providing nutrients so the body can make full use of exercise. Giving the body a nutrient rich liquid food is very different from a drug.

The one that seems a bit borderline but perhaps small enough effect and also already so commonly used by the general population anyways that its not too reasonable to consider it to be "doping" which would be caffeine.

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by strbean on Monday October 19, 2020 @02:24PM (#24829257)

First it is protein shakes. Then creatine and other supplements. Then pre-workout stuff. Then the better pre-workout stuff someone at the gym recommended. Then you find out that pre-workout stuff was banned by the FDA for containing amphetamine analogues. Whoops, you were cheating!

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by thatguy0900 on Monday October 19, 2020 @04:53PM (#24830891)

For anyone who thinks this is exaggerating they even sell "research product- not for human consumption" fda banned stuff at Walmart https://www.walmart.com/ip/Magnitude-Life-Sciences-Dark-Ener...

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by SamReidHughes on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @12:38AM (#24833972)

A good example is the "Deer Antler Extract" that Vijay Singh took. It sounds like something akin to Fish Oil. Imagine if Fish Oil from CVS were banned. For all I know, it could be.

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by Yizahi on Monday October 19, 2020 @02:43PM (#24829487)

You do realize that transfusion of your own blood, even with zero 3rd party chemicals, is also doping? But it only provides nutrients too, or to be more precise concentrated result of those nutrients.

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by mlavin on Monday October 19, 2020 @03:29PM (#24829951)

Blood doping increases red blood cell count and compensates for physiological changes which happen during an event like the Tour de France, it's disingenuous to call it nutrients.

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by nradov on Monday October 19, 2020 @05:04PM (#24831018)

Lance Armstrong and his Postal teammates routinely did blood doping during the Tour de France. They smuggled frozen blood in a hidden compartment and arranged secret transfusions in hotel rooms. All the sordid details are in "The Secret Race" by Tyler Hamilton.

https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/212873/the-secret-r...

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by trhway on Monday October 19, 2020 @02:20PM (#24829203)

>As you go into even basic body building or training, you start taking more and more "Stuff". There's no clear obvious intuitive big line between "natural talent and hard work" and "illegal chemical cheating".

yep, it is all individual. Some people have nice biology, some will get nowhere without "stuff". A recent blood test showed some anemia (that explained why i had such low level fatigue and tiredness threshold in the recent times, and you couldn't just make through it on pure will because it is like an engine with closed air intake - no oxygen, no burning) Started to take B12 and iron - things improved remarkably, physically and mentally. If i were a competitive athlete should i be forbidden from such a "cheating" way of increasing of blood oxygen carrying capability?

My understanding they ban testosterone which also increase the blood oxygen carrying capability. Which means that you're lucky to be born with high testosterone, and you're doomed otherwise (like me - i'm on a lower side). How is that a level playing field then? No exercise can compensate if you get less oxygen.

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by nradov on Monday October 19, 2020 @04:29PM (#24830640)

There is a huge natural variance between individuals that goes far beyond testosterone and includes height, bone density, vision, other hormones, etc. No one realistically expects a level playing field. But everyone has to play by the same arbitrary rules. In practice those differences only matter at elite levels; at casual amateur levels you can overcome natural disadvantages by training harder and playing smarter. The best player on your company softball team probably doesn't have a super high testosterone level.

Testosterone supplementation can induce erythrocytosis, but you can accomplish that more directly with EPO. (I don't recommend doing that.)

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by trhway on Monday October 19, 2020 @05:03PM (#24831005)

>at casual amateur levels you can overcome natural disadvantages by training harder and playing smarter.

no, it is just a feel good fairy tale. You're missing the point - amount of oxygen defines your speed/endurance/etc that you can reach. It is basic law of physics. Put a gas mask on and narrow the pipe half or even just a quarter - no amount of training will help you overcome that. I was an amateur boxer - 4th at University 30 years ago - so i'm not just armchair talking.

For the last decade i've been running and hiking regularly and there recently was a deep in my performance - pushing harder didn't work, it was just like hitting glass ceiling - which got corrected once i saw the anemia and corrected it with supplements. Did i instead have to accept the low level of performance, accompanied by easily setting fatigue, etc. just for sake of "naturalcy"? And if I to run some competition should I stop the supplements and try to run with anemia?

>No one realistically expects a level playing field.

exactly. So why wouldn't we try to to level it as much as possible. Wouldn't it make the competition more honest as it would allow to win the ones who train harder and play smarter than the ones who just accidentally got better DNA?

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by nradov on Monday October 19, 2020 @05:35PM (#24831286)

None of that is correct. VO2max can be trained. You might not have the genetics to be able to reach 80 ml/kg/min like an elite professional endurance athlete but you can improve significantly from where you are now, if you're willing to put in the work. But just doing a bunch of running and hiking won't get you there. You'll have to follow a focused, goal oriented training plan. And it's going to hurt. This will also tend to boost natural testosterone production slightly, so there's a bit of a positive feedback loop.

If you have a legitimate medical condition then you can apply for a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) to take banned supplements while still being allowed to compete.

https://www.wada-ama.org/en/resources/therapeutic-use-exempt...

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by wmeredith on Monday October 19, 2020 @01:57PM (#24828930)

> As you go into even basic body building or training, you start taking more and more "Stuff".

This is because there's not a lot of money in telling people to lift heavy stuff that's literally all around us and eat commonly available protein-rich foods. What is there to sell? In comes the gadgets and supplements.

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by nottorp on Monday October 19, 2020 @01:43PM (#24828779)

If you're home exercising and taking protein shakes and stuff, the person you're cheating is yourself.

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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by thatguy0900 on Monday October 19, 2020 @08:56PM (#24832932)

I'm curious why you take such a hard line. People only take protein powder when they want to be big, and really it only saves you from having to eat such massive amounts of food. If you're skinny and not used to overeating, eating the reccomended gram of protein per pound of lean body mass for muscle growth can really be quite sickening.

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