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Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by the-dude on Monday October 19, 2020 @08:32AM (#24825723)
This may be partially or wholly true.

Athletes and the public have a different interpretation of what doping actually is. The public thinks of doping as taking performance enhancing substances.

Athletes think of doping as crossing the specified threshold/limit.

I have heard this interpretation on TV from a well connected Dutch cycling journalist ( Mart Smeets ).

Every athlete takes performance enhancing substances.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by cratermoon on Monday October 19, 2020 @12:02PM (#24827620)
The public also thinks of doping as taking something that has effects active during the competition, but many PEDs are not like that.

The example I know best is steroids. A younger athlete, before getting into high-level competition, or during the offseason, does a "cycle" or two of steroids. The effect is to build more strength or size. When the athlete ends the steroid cycle some, but not all of the strength or size is lost, assuming they continue training.

What this means is that they have a foundation to build on that's already above what the athlete who doesn't use steroids has. A year or two down the road, there's absolutely no trace of steroids in the athlete's system, so they easily pass drug tests. However, the benefit was already gained.

So for athletes the limits are time-bounded, not dose-bounded.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by nemo44x on Monday October 19, 2020 @01:12PM (#24828459)
A lot of PED's also allow you to heal much faster.
Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by wildmanx on Monday October 19, 2020 @09:04AM (#24825931)
That's depending on what you consider a "performance enhancing substance". With basic food and drinks, we surely all agree that that's not the case. But the line starts to get blurry with supplements. Whey? Creatine? Caffeine? Supplement stores are full of this stuff, and a lot is really just a waste of money and exists to milk the amateur gym bro cash cow. But some of those things help. And eventually you cross the line into forbidden territory.

That line is a clear one. If you take that line, then no, not every athlete takes performance enhancing substances. But if you count, say, caffeine, then yes, most athletes do. And non-athletes too, FWIW.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by throwaway744678 on Monday October 19, 2020 @09:18AM (#24826069)
Well, the line still seems blurry regarding medicines that athletes are allowed to take if they have a specific conditions... For instance, a lot of pro cyclists seem to suffer from asthma (40% vs 8% in the general population)!
Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by Someone on Monday October 19, 2020 @09:59AM (#24826402)
“Exercise-induced asthma” is common in many endurance sports, especially winter sports. https://theconversation.com/winter-olympics-why-many-athlete...:

“Exercise-induced asthma is the most common medical problem among winter Olympic athletes, especially among cross-country skiers. Nearly 50% of these athletes suffer from the condition, closely followed by short-track speed skaters at 43%. For figure skaters it’s 21%, Nordic combined it’s 17%, and for ice hockey it’s 15%. By comparison, around 9% of the UK general population suffers from asthma.”

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by jellicle on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:03AM (#24826988)
You're proving rather than disproving the point.

The situation is something like "huh, a whole lot of Vietnam draftees seem to suffer from flat feet, somehow our drafting algorithm must have pulled in more flat feet people than exist in the entire population".

None of these guys have asthma: http://www.granfondoguide.com/Contents/Index/3488/dick-pound...

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by LeifCarrotson on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:05AM (#24827002)
As an (ex) XC runner who has done thousands of miles in the cold and snow, the word "normally" in that article's pivotal sentence, "This can cause the smooth muscle in the airway to narrow, reducing the athletes’ ability to breathe normally" is a bit of a stretch. It's like saying these athletes all have "exercise-induced tachycardia" because their heart rate goes up when they compete. Responding to dry, cold air with narrowed airways is normal. I don't dispute that some respond to it worse than others and need medication to come back to the default response, but it's easy to stretch that diagnosis and take salbutamol until you're better than the baseline.

My lungs are currently in the annual process of acclimating to the newly cold fall air. Every year for decades I've been running in October and there are a couple weeks when the temperature crashes from the last encore of summer at 60F/15C seemingly overnight to frosty mornings and 40F/5C runs and the leaves change. I can feel that my legs are fine but I'm breathing harder than usual, and I can literally see on my Garmin that my average pace has decreased but my heart rate is unchanged or elevated. By November my VO2 max will be up a bit and my pace will be mostly back to normal.

Does it feel like I'm breathing through a slimy straw on those first frosty mornings? Yes. Am I in danger of asphyxiating from it? No, and I think that's a critical distinction - some of my friends are, they should use an inhaler to counteract their body's over reaction to the conditions. Can I get over it without medication? Yes. Would I be faster if I had blood salbutamol levels of 800 ug/L instead of 0 and an unrestricted airway? Yes, whether I used it in training to work out at a higher level than I otherwise could, raced with it, or both.

I'd be interested in an analysis of those cross-country skiers if they compared the mucus and muscle response of the undiagnosed and diagnosed athletes with and without their inhalers. Do an EVH test and take an ultrasound of the larynx/trachea to measure smooth muscle constriction and mucus production after 15 minutes on the treadmill at 68F/20C and 50% RH, open the door and do it at 32F/0C and 5% RH, then take a hit of an inhaler and do both again (with appropriate breaks between tests). It could also be interesting to look at the responses of non-winter-sport athletes transplanted from warmer climates versus those who have been working out in those conditions for a few months.

It would be hypocritical not to admit that I occasionally take a pseudoephedrine throughout the fall because my nasal mucus membranes get more productive when raking dusty leaves or running through fields of ragweed - which is, again, pretty normal. To me, the main difference is that suffering through the snot doesn't lead to overcoming it, it's just gross and annoying.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by bilbo0s on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:28AM (#24827231)
In the Salazar circle, TUE's for asthma were downright endemic. Everyone knows what's going on, you just need to catch these guys. We got Salazar, and most of his athletes know in the back of their minds we'll get them sooner or later.
Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by the-dude on Monday October 19, 2020 @09:21AM (#24826098)
Let's take hormones. Once upon a time there is an athlete who has naturally high level of certain hormone. Research is conducted and the anti-doping agency moves up the level of how much the hormone is legal to have in the blood.

Now all competitors will take additional hormones to reach, but not cross said level. As long as this works, they think of themselves as not doping and levelling the playing field. But they are taking hormones.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by kgran on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:46AM (#24827404)
See:

World Athletics Female Eligibility Regulations on testosterone levels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Athletics_Female_Eligibi...

Case of Caster Semenya https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caster_Semenya

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by wildmanx on Monday October 19, 2020 @03:06PM (#24829719)
Morally, taking that hormone is still wrong. And so should it be according to the rules too.

If you now answer that it's unfair that the person with naturally occurring higher levels can have it but those with lower levels can't "level" the playing field, well, tough luck. That's just the lottery that gives some people an advantage in certain sports. We all accept that some people are naturally tall and therefore have advantages in basketball. Or some people have naturally stronger VO2 max and thereby advantages in endurance sports.

The competition is how far you can get with the _natural state_ of your body, plus training. Not how far you can get as long as everybody pumps some substances up to a previously-agreed-upon threshold. Those thresholds are just the sad plan-B solution of anti-doping agencies if they can't directly measure doping substances and need to resort to measuring the effects instead. That actually disadvantages those with naturally higher effects.

Nobody would think of restricting maximum leg length, and as long as your legs are not longer than that it's fine to surgically extend them.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by the-dude on Monday October 19, 2020 @03:08PM (#24829745)
So why do we have different leagues for men and women then?
Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by wildmanx on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @02:47AM (#24834522)
To allow half the planet's population to also be competitive in sports. And often times, the style/technique slightly differs between them too.

In some sports you even have different weight classes. Rowing has 2, wrestling has 6 (olympic), boxing has 8-10 (olympic). The techniques there also differ slightly.

And there are other partitionings of the population too that restrict in who can participate in a competition. You have world championships, but you also have nationals. And regional competitions. And junior leagues. And school competitions.

Then there is also the paralympics.

You can find all that reasonable or ridiculous, but I'm not sure how that's related to doping.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by Hyolobrika on Monday October 19, 2020 @06:09PM (#24831584)
Good question
Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by alasdair_ on Monday October 19, 2020 @12:18PM (#24827793)
> With basic food and drinks, we surely all agree that that's not the case.

It’s worth noting here that the first Olympic doping suspension was for drinking a beer.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_at_the_Olympic_Games

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by Tor3 on Monday October 19, 2020 @09:45AM (#24826290)
> Every athlete takes performance enhancing substances.

No. I was one and I didn't. And I knew a lot of athletes. I know how most of them were thinking. What you said is simply not true.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by parthdesai on Monday October 19, 2020 @10:00AM (#24826407)
Sorry, i=I don't mean this in a demeaning manner, were you an elite athlete competing in olympics, playing in NBA or premier league? When people say every athlete takes PEDs, it's usually athletes at the very top of their game. And yes, when there are millions or billions (if you're Cristiano Ronaldo or Lebron James) of dollars at stake, athlete's will take any advantage possible.

Do I think every professional athlete is on PEDs? Yes. Does it make what they are doing any less super human? No. It's like your typical person looking at a bodybuilder and saying, I could look like that if i did steroids. Which is total bullshit.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by Tor3 on Monday October 19, 2020 @10:09AM (#24826490)
I had just reached an international level, but I was never at the olympic level. But a whole group I trained with for a time all became professionals, and some of them competed in the olympics. I knew them then before they got there, and I knew their level and their attitudes, and I saw nothing in their professional performances indicating that they had at any point moved into doping. How sure can one be? Never totally sure. But trying to be "sure" about the other possibility (that they were doping) will need more than "yeah, I'm sure they do".

EditAdd: I did know people who were fascinated about EPO-like medication, and asthma medicine when used without actually having asthma. That was when they were quite young, and that's also a long time ago. I never ran into any of them actually using anything, and they were in the minority - I met just two, and sadly one of them died in a traffic accident before he got to a professional level.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by the-dude on Monday October 19, 2020 @12:55PM (#24828230)
As a counterpoint : I have enjoyed quite some nightlife over the years, but I have never stumbled upon cocaine.

I am sure there is plenty.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by selectodude on Monday October 19, 2020 @12:15PM (#24827764)
That's all really great, but it's possible (even likely) that they progressed because they doped and you didn't progress because you didn't.

It's simply physiologically impossible to accomplish what these athletes are doing without assistance.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by Tor3 on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @02:55AM (#24834567)
I know exactly why I "didn't progress" and they did, as you kind of put it.. I decided not to. They decided to continue. I stopped training, they didn't. When I was still active I progressed same as they did - and I saw nothing super-human in their later performance. Obviously I only have intimate knowledge about my own field, I know nothing about e.g. 100m sprinters, jumpers and the like. And, as everybody else, I'm pretty suspicious about pure muscle-based sports like weight lifting.
Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by wildmanx on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @02:56AM (#24834569)
That's a ridiculous claim because it can't be falsified as long as you are not arguing with an unbeaten olympic champion. As long as an athlete has been beaten by somebody, you can always pull the "yeah well you know why you didn't win? Because you're clean, but everybody above you doped."

Just like arguing "well we only lost the election cause the other side cheated."

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by wildmanx on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @02:51AM (#24834543)
What many people in this thread don't realize is that sports is more than NBA and soccer.

In fact, less commercialized sports are much more interesting to watch and participate because they are not just full of over-hyped over-payed over-celebritized evening-entertainment shows designed to milk the audience of most money possible.

If "athlete" ends for you at what's on pay TV and on ads at bus stops, sure. But that's a very limited view of sports. And quite sad, frankly.

Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by mtts on Monday October 19, 2020 @10:15AM (#24826541)
It is a public secret that at the finish line of cycling races at the junior level, parents stand around swapping tips on which asthma inhaler to get.
Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by Spinnaker_ on Monday October 19, 2020 @01:12PM (#24828456)
I'm curious what sport. My wife is a swimmer and had to make the choice to either dope and compete at an international level or give it up. She chose to give it up. And this wasn't a shock or anything. She knew the decision was coming since she first showed promise in high school.
Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by cratermoon on Monday October 19, 2020 @12:05PM (#24827658)
Another question worth asking: did any of the athletes you knew take PEDs at any time in their past, but stopped once they approached a level where getting caught would mean the end of their career?
Re:Chess’s Cheating Crisis by Tor3 on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @03:00AM (#24834585)
None of the ones I knew well enough to call friends or acquaintances did, and of those who continued to a pro level none of them arbitrarily stopped. They continued until their careers naturally started to decline, and then changed careers - some of them sports related, some not.