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Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by nexuist on Sunday October 11, 2020 @05:41PM (#24749334)
It's not a special status, anyone has the right to deny you a hardware product as well. I don't have to sell cars to anyone if I don't want to. If I do want to sell someone a car, I can specify a contract or license that they must follow if they buy my car. Ferrari famously only sells exclusive models to customers who have been pre-approved, i.e. they have a certain amount of income and own 5+ Ferraris already. I also cannot walk into a Lockheed Martin dealership and tell them to sell me a F-22, even if I can afford it, even if my country has permissive laws regarding the ownership of fighter aircraft.

As for software, well, EA has the right to ban me from their servers if I hack their games, even if I did pay for the product, and this makes sense because it ruins everyone else's experience. I don't pay for HN but if I did they still would have a right to ban my account if I start posting slurs or other abusive content.

Is it desirable? Of course it's desirable; imagine having no control over your own creations and having to deal with the consequences of other people abusing it.

Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by laumars on Sunday October 11, 2020 @06:30PM (#24749667)
None of those examples are equivalent. The hardware examples are where companies refuse to sell a product (so you never own the product to begin with) where as the EA example is where you’ve been kicked off online services (you still have the capability to play the game offline, you just can’t access their servers, but you don’t buy their servers when you buy the game) and the HN example is a termination of subscription. Neither of those examples demonstrate legal limitations to software usage with a product you own (though the EA one at least comes close from a superficial perspective).
Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by nexuist on Sunday October 11, 2020 @10:18PM (#24750847)
> you still have the capability to play the game offline

EA famously uses online-only DRM in many of their modern titles; if you get banned from, say, SimCity, you can't run the game at all. There is no "offline mode".

Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by ebertucc on Monday October 12, 2020 @01:07AM (#24751556)
And is this desirable? How does hacking your copy of a single player game harm anyone?

Also, SimCity eventually got an offline mode.

Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by nexuist on Monday October 12, 2020 @10:00AM (#24754392)
It's not a single player game I'm pretty sure - there are leaderboards and achievements that allow you to compete with your friends. Obviously these features are moot if the top 10,000 players have a score of MAX_INT. It would have been nice to "disconnect" your city from the leaderboards if you wanted to go crazy, but unfortunately this mode was not added.

For the record I am against always on DRM so I did not buy this game nor any other game that uses it. I don't believe we need to codify laws banning the practice or any such thing that requires software developers to build things they don't want to build (with the exception of critical fields such as healthcare and aviation).

It's desirable in that a one time purchase does not entitle a customer to a lifetime of server resources; they paid for the game and they can certainly keep the game, but they don't have a right to the services required by the game (those are recurring costs). This makes sense since the alternative is forcing EA to pay to host servers for people that violated their terms of service.

You are correct that it got an offline mode eventually, I overlooked this. But this demonstrates that the market corrected this problem: Enough consumers complained to force a change. Therefore, is there need for external intervention? The simple solution to always-on DRM seems to be to just avoid buying any products that use it.

Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by ImprobableTruth on Sunday October 11, 2020 @06:27PM (#24749648)
>If I do want to sell someone a car, I can specify a contract or license that they must follow if they buy my car.

Only in a limited form e.g. exhaustion doctrine prevents you from restricting resale. If someone wants to resell their exclusive Ferrari, there's nothing Ferrari can legally do (though this'll probably get you blacklisted from ever receiving an exclusive vehicle).

In general, terms can't go against existing laws and have to be 'conscionable' to be enforceable (i.e. they can't be obviously 'unfair').

Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by rowanG077 on Sunday October 11, 2020 @06:25PM (#24749632)
The examples of software you list aren't close to equivalent. They are all services and you can get banned from a service if you misbehave. But a piece of software such as a driver is not a service.
Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by nexuist on Sunday October 11, 2020 @10:15PM (#24750838)
Software updates aren't a service? Doesn't Nvidia provide updates to its drivers over time? They can choose to cut anyone off from those, including the very first initial driver download. Sure, you can own and do whatever you want with the hardware - but good luck getting it to do anything useful if you can't access Nvidia's driver download service.
Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by rowanG077 on Monday October 12, 2020 @01:38AM (#24751695)
Yes software updates can be a service. Nvidia however doesn't provide a working version of their driver with a card. Just like buying a game is not a service but recievig updates can be.
Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by lsiebert on Sunday October 11, 2020 @07:54PM (#24750151)
Sure, but a reseller could resell it under the first sale doctrine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine
Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by amelius on Sunday October 11, 2020 @06:55PM (#24749825)
> Ferrari famously only sells exclusive models to customers who have been pre-approved, i.e. they have a certain amount of income and own 5+ Ferraris already.

Sounds like discrimination to me, and not desirable.

Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by PeterisP on Monday October 12, 2020 @05:45AM (#24752840)
Only a few very specific types of discrimination (religion, sex, ethnicity/race, etc) are prohibited, every other discrimination is fair game and often desired. For example, it's quite desirable to discriminate potential developer hires according to their programming ability, to discriminate potential borrowers according to their ability to repay the loan, etc.
Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by anoncake on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @07:01AM (#24764283)
And discrimination is only discrimination if it's illegal where PeterisP lives?
Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by PeterisP on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @02:04PM (#24768053)
Discrimination is discrimination everywhere, as it applies to all activities where people make distinction and treat some things, people or activities differently.

But I'm arguing that when you hear "X is discrimination" then it's wrong to automatically imply that X is bad or X should be changed - there's just a narrow subset of discrimination that's immoral and should be avoided; and there's a narrow subset of discrimination that's illegal discrimination (there's some overlap between these two subsets but they are not exactly the same of course), but most discrimination - and certainly the default situation - is just reasonable human activity of us applying common sense and acting according to the specific situation instead of blindly acting the same no matter what like robots would, it's completely normal to adapt to the specific person and act differently to be most suitable with them, make adjustments and custom approaches for different individuals which definitely is discrimination but there's nothing a priori wrong with that. For example, custom pricing is one form of discrimination - offering a discount for students or senior peole is certainly discrimination, but we generally consider that it's entirely appropriate.

And in certain cases a lack of discrimination would be completely immoral - for example, the concept of "reasonable accomodations" is a requirement for discrimination; for example, a policy that forbids electronic devices in an exam does not discriminate in any way and applies equally to anyone (in colloquial language one might call it a "discriminatory policy" but that's wrong; perhaps I'm nitpicking on that but it a misuse of words to mean their exact opposite), but as it forbids hearing aids for people who need them, then that non-discrimination is bad; and also simply equally allowing all devices would be bad for other reasons, so ADA and equivalent laws require to discriminate and apply different rules to people with different abilities.

So if you see a practice that seems definitely bad and harmful, then "is it discrimination?" is the wrong question to ask, since it's very likely that it may be harmful but not discrimination, or it may be discrimination but nothing wrong with it; these aren't edge cases, the overlap is just partial. The proper question to ask is whether the criteria of the discrimination is fair (the up-thread issue of discriminating upon wealth certainly is debatable whether that should or should not be acceptable) and whether the results of that discrimination are appropriate.

Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by amelius on Monday October 12, 2020 @07:11AM (#24753249)
But building a brand by only selling to rich people?
Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by PeterisP on Monday October 12, 2020 @07:22AM (#24753300)
Sure, everything that's not explicitly prohibited is permitted, and wealth is not one of those very few things prohibited for discrimination. You're free to have a club that only admits billionaires or offer a discount that applies only to people below a certain amount of income.

The example on ability to repay is closely related to discrimination by pure wealth, but there are businesses with even more straightforward criteria, e.g. financial services that are offered only to individuals with net worth above a certain (quite large) amount, and having less money than that automatically disqualifies you from that service even if you were able and willing to pay the involved fees.

Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by amelius on Monday October 12, 2020 @07:56AM (#24753494)
> Sure, everything that's not explicitly prohibited is permitted

That was not the issue. The question was whether it is desirable.

Personally it leaves a bad taste. It reminds me of a fashion brand that doesn't sell to obese people (can't remember the name but it was in a documentary).

Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by thrwyoilarticle on Monday October 12, 2020 @12:11PM (#24755946)
So don't buy one
Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by alacombe on Sunday October 11, 2020 @10:51PM (#24750998)
> Sounds like discrimination to me, and not desirable.

Are you allowing everybody who want to have sex with you to have sex with you or are you discriminating to a select few / unique person ?

Discriminations is part of human nature.

Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by wsgeorge on Monday October 12, 2020 @05:54PM (#24759887)
> Discriminations is part of human nature.

Glad to see someone also came to this conclusion!

Re:The AMD Radeon Graphics Driver Makes Up Roughly 10.5% of ... by nexuist on Sunday October 11, 2020 @10:16PM (#24750841)
That's the point of luxury models. Not everyone can have them.