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Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by pyrrhotech on Friday October 09, 2020 @09:10AM (#24729528)
Amazon is not predatory to me. It has greatly improved my life from a convenience and cost perspective. They also recently raised their wages for all warehouse employees such that it's one of the best places to work for unskilled labor in many locations. Amazon has made many small time merchants rich through their platform, and it's software engineers are among the highest paid in the industry, so I have to strongly disagree about the zon, but the rest of it agree wholeheartedly.
Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by pwinnski on Friday October 09, 2020 @10:06AM (#24730012)
The US House committee that spent 18 months investigating cataloged an extensive report[0] on Amazon's predatory ways, and reading it one quickly realizes that not everyone feels warm and fuzzy toward the company as you do.

There's a lot.

The section on Amazon begins on page 248, and is very readable.

[0] https://judiciary.house.gov/uploadedfiles/competition_in_dig...

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by s3r3nity on Friday October 09, 2020 @02:07PM (#24732658)
Just theater - no legislation.

Too many senators / congress people have Amazon warehouses with 1000's of jobs in their backyard, and would never support breaking them up on weak committee recommendations.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by pwinnski on Friday October 09, 2020 @04:05PM (#24733860)
This is step one. It is possible that step two will die on the floor, but this report made it out of committee, which is farther than I expected it to get, so I'm not quite so pessimistic about step two.

Right now one party wants to go after the big tech companies for what seem to be the wrong reasons, while the other party doesn't seem to have the will to go after them at all. But in the end, we got a report with good recommendations, so we'll see if bad motives can bring about some good results.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by durnygbur on Friday October 09, 2020 @09:31AM (#24729717)
Amazon from Europe's perspective:

- IT - an average employer at best including salaries, extremely competitive workplace, offices in most expensive cities, I don't think they offer any equity

- warehouses - they were wrecked by German unions and opened 4 warehouses in Poland serving exclusively German market and burdening the brand new EU-funded highways, as if they were shunning from complying with the German labor code and German wages (the market is too lucrative to abandon it)

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by leetcrew on Friday October 09, 2020 @09:58AM (#24729945)
if having a warehouse in germany is so unattractive that it's better to put them in poland and ship everything across the border, isn't that more of a problem with germany than amazon?

edit: okay, that was a bit glib. but isn't complaining about this sort of thing at odds with the idea of an integrated european economy?

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by durnygbur on Friday October 09, 2020 @10:01AM (#24729971)
> isn't that more of a problem with germany than amazon?

On top of unions and a desperate neighbour, Germany has saturated retail market including world's 5th biggest Schwarz Gruppe who certainly are not happy with a new foreign competitor, but that's a topic for many dissertations.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by jasonv on Friday October 09, 2020 @10:14AM (#24730087)
Reno is in the same spot. The number of Tesla, Walmart and Amazon trucks clogging I-80 at all hours of the day is astonishing. It also clogs the highway and impedes traffic. I wish they could put a toll or ban trucks from 7am to 7pm so people can get over the hill without tracking trains of trucks. Not sure how this could be solved without an effort of some kind, but as far as o can tell, there are zero policies guiding their behavior.
Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by athms on Friday October 09, 2020 @06:58PM (#24735272)
I am sure Nevada's lack of income tax and the tax breaks the state gives, plus Reno's proximity to California is the reason logistics is centered there. Reno sells itself as the West Coast shipping hub.

Pretty much everything I order from Amazon these days comes from Nevada even though I am in Silicon Valley. I know Amazon has several warehouses in California, but I have never seen any order originate from California. The company probably uses them as local distribution points for its own shipping service.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by CameronNemo on Friday October 09, 2020 @11:52AM (#24731110)
Wow I had no idea this was happening. I wonder if taxing the hell out of these trucks would tip the scales toward moving the logistics closer to the destination market, which I presume is the bay area and peripherals.
Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by anoncake on Friday October 09, 2020 @11:17AM (#24730681)
It's really a problem with the EU. Its member states still compete with each other too much, companies shouldn't be able to shop around for the laxest labour laws like that.
Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by leetcrew on Friday October 09, 2020 @11:35AM (#24730894)
preface: likely an ignorant opinion from an american.

from across the pond, it looks like the richer EU countries (eg, germany) essentially want to have it both ways. they want to have strong worker protections and prevent poorer EU countries from enabling labor arbitrage, all while having relatively unencumbered trade within the EU. at the same time, they don't want to provide the economic aid to the poorer countries that would reduce the incentive to do this sort of thing. seems like a "pick one" type of situation.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by jakub_g on Friday October 09, 2020 @11:57AM (#24731169)
This is absolutely true. Another example:

- French (and German) companies own most of supermarket chains in Poland: good.

- Polish long-distance truck delivery companies are among the most competitive in EU due to lower costs of workforce: bad, France has been lobbying hard against them for years.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by kyuudou on Friday October 09, 2020 @11:27AM (#24730804)
I disagree, consumers should be able to decide if they want to buy a product or not and do their due diligence investigating the producer.

The countries where labor is cheaper benefit by getting more work and ultimately they uplift themselves.

Now, if it comes out that such labor is abused or managed corruptly and so forth, that is a product I will not knowingly or willingly buy.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by anoncake on Friday October 09, 2020 @02:40PM (#24732995)
In the real world, customers don't actually do that and in fact cannot for everything they buy. Regulation is simply more efficient and effective.
Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by kyuudou on Friday October 09, 2020 @04:15PM (#24733959)
>Regulation is simply more efficient and effective.

And that efficiency and effectiveness benefit an elite few. If people continue to "wake up" globally, becoming increasingly empowered by technology and democratizing philosophies, they will come to the logical conclusion that they can "vote" with their currency. Companies will definitely fucking pay attention if people stop buying their shit.

For example, I've taken the "buy local as possible" ethic to its logical extreme, realizing for example that I have to make compromises for things like consumer electronics. "The real world", as you say. But I think it's defeatist to just buy the cheapest junk you can afford in complete disregard of its means and origin of manufacture unless that's the only solution.

Just today, I was shopping around where to buy Sid Meier's Memoirs book since I just learned about it today on HN. I could elect the easy, lazy, one-world-ruled-by-Bezos path and click Amazon to save a few cents and get it delivered a day less, or I could go the slightly less convenient but more positive route of Indiebound.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by anoncake on Friday October 09, 2020 @07:01PM (#24735290)
You got that backwards. Elites are the ones that benefit from letting people "vote" with money – since they have more of it. That is the opposite of democracy.

I'm not saying we shouldn't try to make ethical choices and just wait to regulation. But it is rarely sufficient. Boycotting a company as an individual has very little effect on the company but does inconvenience the individual. Doing that can feel good but it's actually pretty irrational. Organized boycotts are much more effective. And regulation is the ultimate (threat to) boycott.

If technology turned people into enlightened, selfless beings things would be different. I don't see that happening, to the contrary.

Furthermore, people have limited time and energy. They can't investigate in detail every product they consume.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by jimkleiber on Friday October 09, 2020 @11:27AM (#24730795)
It may be a benevolent monopoly to you but that doesn't mean it's not a monopoly. The predatory behaviors seem to be focused on other companies, other competitors, not on consumers. Actually, seems they are treating consumers very well (often thru very low prices subsidized from profits elsewhere) to drive competitors out of business.

So from a consumer standpoint, perhaps it is good now, but we also don't know how much better it could be if there were competition. From a competitor standpoint, it sure doesn't sound fun. I have friends who sell things on Amazon and if they get too big, sometimes Amazon even squeezes them out of their business.

I wonder if antitrust law is to protect consumers or to protect other potential producers. Regardless, I imagine some of the idea behind it is that monopolies have relatively unchecked market power and while they can be good to consumers, they can also turn bad for consumers with little freedom for consumers to leave.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by xutopia on Friday October 09, 2020 @11:36AM (#24730922)
You forget all the successful merchants that have their products copied by Amazon and undercut. They'll embrace you on their platform but use their knowledge of your sales against you. Look at all the Amazon Basics products out there and tell me this is not concerning to retailers making use of their platform!
Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by waylandsmithers on Friday October 09, 2020 @10:55AM (#24730474)
As a parent who has basically never had to think about running out of diapers thanks to Amazon, I couldn't agree more (and sure, there are other companies who could do this).

This has nothing to do with anti-trust but out of all the major tech corps Facebook really seems the most like a big tobacco company- sure they are adding value to the economy and ostensibly giving individual consumers something they want, but as a society we'd generally be better off if it just kind of went away.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by mthoms on Friday October 09, 2020 @11:02AM (#24730536)
Interesting that you mentioned diapers. This is a quote from page 398 of the subcommittee report -

>The Subcommittee’s investigation identified several instances in which a dominant platform was pricing goods or services below-cost in order to drive out rivals and capture the market. For example, documents produced during the investigation revealed that Amazon had been willing to lose $200 million in a single quarter in order to pressure Diapers.com, a firm it had recognized as its most significant rival in the category. Amazon cut prices and introduced steep promotions, prompting a pricing war that eventually weakened Diapers.com. Amazon then purchased the company, eliminating its competitor and subsequently cutting back the discounts and promotions it had introduced.

I'm curious... After reading that, do you still feel the same way about Amazon?

Price might not mater to many on HN but to millions of people it does.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by waylandsmithers on Monday October 12, 2020 @11:41AM (#24755566)
That's a fair point, and I was generally aware of Amazon's behavior in matters like this, and some general overall effect on consumer surplus. Does it bother me enough to make me cancel my subscribe and save to drive to the store and lug the box of diapers to my car? No. I'm fine with letting the government make the rules on what is economically destructive behavior.
Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by jamra on Friday October 09, 2020 @11:10AM (#24730615)
That’s really funny to me. One of the criticisms I’ve read about Amazon is how they destroyed diapers dot com.

There could have been several other sites all worth billions of dollars without the need for a single one stop shop.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by srsQtho00 on Friday October 09, 2020 @10:08AM (#24730029)
Serious question: is convenience for others the only bar we have to step over before enabling a certain type of utilitarian role?

Precisely quantified utilitarianism is the way? Quantified by who? Is our math, purposefully constrained for consistency, the right tool for that job?

What long term impact on those workers and society does creating so many low-effort monotonous jobs have?

Is there an upside besides expansion of low effort consumption and criticism of real effort?

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by johannes1234321 on Friday October 09, 2020 @10:27AM (#24730209)
It matches the Zeitgeist of individualism we are in, which is destructing politics. Politics are about finding a common path for a society.

A world where I optimizer for myself is very different, from one where I optimizer for society.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by srsQtho00 on Friday October 09, 2020 @10:39AM (#24730322)
What is it?

Who is we?

What common path are you referring to? What are its attributes in terms of maximizing individual time economy?

IMO that’s what the sharing through social effort is. Maximizing each individuals time economy.

Instead we seem to be maximizing time economy for people who can pay to externalize effort.

We’re really not optimizing for self by taking on more hours for less pay to keep Wall Street up.

Which to me ties right in with creating low effort jobs. Rather than decrease the amount of real work by expanding access to that work.

Let’s just hand out mops and brooms. Heard there’s coal to shovel out east!

Who knows, having more time may make things like cleaning a toilet and picking up packages seem less onerous.

We’re optimizing for a minority to be coddled by the effort of the majority. And being paid off with a fraction of the real output given the math I see.

Based upon hand me down stories from people with a very different intuition for quantification and science.

Would someone explain to me how kowtowing to such a social reality makes any sense scientifically?

Westerners all on about “science!” could stand to take a long look at their actual beliefs and application of agency.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by pwinnski on Friday October 09, 2020 @12:27PM (#24731524)
This comment won't leave my head. I think the unspoken, perhaps unrealized, context for this comment is the idea that a company must be predatory to everyone in order to be actually-predatory.

A company that is predatory to literally everyone would not survive long. Obviously any predatory company must benefit one or more groups at the expense of others, or else how could they exist?

I mean, I think Facebook is terrible, but clearly many people find some benefit, or Facebook wouldn't have the billion-plus users they do. I don't deny that some people find benefit from Facebook, I just don't think that benefit outweighs the cost to society.

So Amazon is not predatory to parent commenter. In many ways, they're not predatory directly to me, either! I order goods from them at times, I use AWS, and overall I might argue that my life is better with Amazon than without. But my personal experiences aren't definitive. In order to benefit me, Amazon, by all reports, is preying on others. Competitors, suppliers, employees, and so on.

Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by cryptica on Friday October 09, 2020 @12:04PM (#24731244)
Amazon is a great company. They've created an incredible amount of value both for themselves and their merchants. They've been consistently helping small businesses and giving them a fighting chance. They've created so many jobs in the process. Doing the right thing is part of their business model.
Re:Facebook is a monopoly that buys, copies, kills competito... by zepto on Friday October 09, 2020 @12:24PM (#24731493)
None of the points you made actually contradict the claim that Amazon is predatory.