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Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by swashboon on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @11:51AM (#24699031)
I worked with two developers in Boston who were DINK (Double Income No Kids) and they sold their Boston condo, moved to the Midwest (Minneapolis) and bought a six bedroom house on a lake and two jet-skis for the same price as their condo. Their cost of living went down tremendously. By their own standards they lost nothing compared to Boston (food/services/entertainment actually got better) except that they had to deal with people on the Coast saying how boring it must be - scratch that - they weren't listening because they were having to much fun on their jet-skis...
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by vdnkh on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:00PM (#24699150)
This is a very consumerist world view (get big house, get fun toys) that not everyone believes in. I choose to live in a more vibrant city where I essentially trade my money for opportunity, experiences, and community.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by mountainb on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:04PM (#24699207)
Versus the highly spiritual experience of living in the pod, eating the bugs, paying the $4,500 every month to the landlord of the one bedroom, answering e-mails at 11:24 pm to be able to pay for it etc.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by lavishlatern on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:14PM (#24699329)
A 6br lakefront house in Minneapolis is just as expensive as a nice condo in Boston (op literally notes they spent the same amount).
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by qes on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @01:00PM (#24699974)
In Minneapolis or the close burbs or the fancy farther out burbs (Minnetonka, Wayzata) a 6 br lakefront house in not-great condition is over $1M. If it's a nice house, good shape, way over $1M. But you can go 30 minutes and change outside Minneapolis and get a nice 6 br lakefront for like $750k.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by ethanbond on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:14PM (#24699326)
You oughta go to a better city.

Also, non-consumerist does not imply spiritual.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by Dirlewanger on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:38PM (#24699678)
Every growing city right now is going to be like that though. Block-after-block of Chipotle, Jamba Juice, and Whole Foods, 5 story apartment buildings with ground floor occupied only by the aforementioned.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by dogman144 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:44PM (#24699770)
Those 3 tend to have diminishing returns past 35/40, which is around the time lifestyle concerns that more trend towards safety (financial and otherwise) and stability start mattering much, much more.

It's like the professional equivalent of finally owning a paid-off car and realizing what a difference it all makes.

A nuked mortgage by a tech salary, a home with an extra bedroom that can support your ailing parents who lost their retirements in '08 and then again in '20, a stable school system that balances non-urban but also not bible belt, and the concept of actually being able to save up nearly full college for 3 kids.... all lives in midwestern tech jobs. Of course there are some cultural tradeoffs the less Minneapolis/Chicago and the more Boise/Des Moines you get, but it's a spectrum that's worth considering.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by nip180 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:07PM (#24699245)
Minneapolis would have significantly different opportunities, experiences, and communities than Boston. I’m not sure I’d declare one over the other. In this example having the opportunity to spend a lot of time on or by the lake would be highly desirable, not directly consumerist, and more available in Minneapolis than Boston.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by dogman144 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:48PM (#24699826)
Just on the Boston note, the city wears itself out pretty quickly. COVID is actually showing this strongly. Freedom Trail and related powered a downtown that otherwise died since March.

Of course it'll come back whenever it does, but the "real culture" of the areas that aren't total millennial, college, or medical resident playgrounds is up in Cambridge /Somerville. And those two towns are pretty small ultimately with rough commutes into the city.

Minneapolis and the like start to grow on me, as it's trading one smallish cultural area for another, but at a fraction of the cost.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by toomuchtodo on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:06PM (#24699228)
They could have also sunk all of the equity into index funds, and done the digital nomad thing [1], using investment income to boost quality of life.

I believe the point is, don't waste income on servicing housing debt unnecessarily (efficient use of capital). If jet skis and McMansions are your thing, cool. If you'd rather party it up in Medellín, Columbia while living off of dividends, also cool.

[1] https://nomadlist.com/cost-of-living/in/

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by scudd on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:27PM (#24699544)
I think many people can resonate with the desire for more physical space than afforded by a city condo. To describe it as "consumerist" seems a little excessive. The ease of access to nature is another huge plus of getting outside the city
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by BurningFrog on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:12PM (#24699304)
What do people mean when they say a city is "vibrant"?
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by ethanbond on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:19PM (#24699414)
I'm not sure there's any one thing. When I think of New York City, which I would say is not only vibrant but nearly vibrating with energy, it's some combination of the following:

* A ton of different languages being spoken within earshot at any one time

* Lots of different smells at any one time, some delicious and certainly some much less so

* Lots of music where you do and do not expect it, all sorts of different genres sometimes complementing and sometimes juxtaposing the surroundings

* People physically moving and speaking faster

* The physical tightness of the city probably adds to all of the above

But most importantly, I think the above compose into an overall sense of serendipity. The phrase, "in the city, anything is possible" is frequently interpreted to mean, "you can achieve the highest version of what you want to achieve!" I think that's actually incorrect. It means exactly what it says: anything is possible. Relative to suburban or rural areas, you simply have no idea what is coming next minute-to-minute. That, I think, gives a sensation of constantly anticipating serendipity, which we round out to the word "vibrant."

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by jetrink on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:44PM (#24699759)
> "in the city, anything is possible"

I am reminded of this and grateful anytime I get interested in a new hobby. I started indoor rock climbing and discovered there are at least six gyms in my city that I can bike to. I got interested in film photography and found there was a great community darkroom with all the equipment needed to develop film and make prints. I discovered I enjoy board games and found there are dozens of clubs that meet regularly that I can choose from, depending on what types of games I like and how competitive I want the atmosphere to be. (Asterisk on all of this currently, due to the pandemic of course.)

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by dogman144 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @01:12PM (#24700110)
This is a good description of the city intangibles.

I think it usually boils down to stuff like this.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by paganel on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:23PM (#24699464)
Coffee shops, bars/pubs, cinemas, theaters, opera houses, bigger and nicer libraries, real, physical bookshops (at least for people like me, who visit them regularly like how other people are going to church), and I’m sure I must be missing some other stuff.

As an anecdote, I went through a dark time about 10 years ago and living in a big city and being able to see strangers each and every day on public transport helped me tremendously, it meant not having to live with my dark thoughts. I could have not had the same experience had I lived in suburbia or in the countryside.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by squidlogic on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:52PM (#24699885)
My own hot take on this:

If the fundamental unit of value is provided by people, then the potential to get work done scales with the number of people engaged and ready to do it.

In a city like New York, there are a lot of talented people that are engaged in value creation. That creates an economic ecosystem that provides the potential to take an idea and bring it to value delivery with low friction.

Vibrancy, then, is the attribute where idea potential is able to reach value delivery with low friction.

This is evidenced by a lot of what the other posters have mentioned: restaurants, the arts, startups, etc. These are the result of that potential existing within the ecosystem.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by d1zzy on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @01:35PM (#24700344)
It's hard to say. I've lived din large cities in Europe almost my entire life and that experience was "normal" then moved to the US suburbs where almost nothing happens. But a few years later when I visited New York and stayed for 3 nights, oh man, it was such a weird energy. It felt like I needed to be out every second, it felt that if I spent an hour sleeping in my hotel it's an hour wasted somehow. The fact that at any point in the day or night there were people filling the sidewalks made me want to be out there with them. I don't know how to explain it, but there was an energy driving me to do more.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by typon on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:25PM (#24699517)
I don't think it's easy to describe in words. You actually have to be there. I've lived in a suburb of Toronto for most of my life (similar to a random American suburb), and when I went to Florence for the first time, I had a sense that the city was alive, independent of the people in it. It felt as if I was a part of something, even though I was just visiting for a couple of weeks. On the other hand, I didn't feel that in Rome.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by asdff on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @02:18PM (#24700741)
I can offer contrast between where I grew up, Cleveland, which is not a vibrant city, and Los Angeles, where I live now.

In Cleveland, no one walks. It's jarring when I visit home now and sometimes not seeing a soul walking beyond the occasional drunk down on their luck, even downtown. Even the poorest people here save for a $1000 car, and they can manage it because rent is $400 and insurance is dirt cheap. As a result of all this non walking, most restaurants and shops are located in suburban style developments with hundreds of cars parked in the lot. These are extremely popular. The Eaton Chagrin shopping center, for instance, gets so much traffic the exit ramp backs up onto 271 for a mile and the parking lot typically fills up entirely. I've never seen traffic quite like this in LA, spilling out from a highway offramp directly into a shopping center and gridlocking an entire interchange. Things are slow during rush hour in LA, but traffic actually moves, you are never stopped for 10 mins not moving at all unless there has been a serious car accident.

As a result of all this nonwalking, the few commercial corridors that were built in the streetcar era perennially suffer. For lease signs are more common than open signs, but luckily these rare small lot commercial parcels don't get turned over for development into big box agglomerations very often since the population of the metro area has been entirely stagnant for 50 years. This means that every restaurant and every bar is a drive, and this is a drive you have to make yourself as sometimes it takes 20-30 minutes to wait for an Uber to make it's way to your neighborhood, given the low demand and low density of the population. This is a recipe for a neutered nightlife, neutered pedestrian life, and serves to further amplify the feedback loop of clearing more woods in the fringe suburbs for tract housing and developing more suburban shopping centers.

Because of white flight, the city never really recovered. Cleveland used to have 1 million people living in its borders, now it's 380k, and the city is remarkably hollowed out and many historical buildings have been razed for surface parking. Urban development has focused on getting people downtown for a sports game and nothing more. The bars downtown are a recent phenomenom, brought on by millenials being drinking age and having literally no bars beyond suburban family taverns, bowling alleys, and formerlly smokey dive bars to frequent.

Then the winter hits, and things truly die. No public events really happen, and people just stay in their homes and try not to spend much time in the cold. If they want to spend time in the cold, they drive 4+ hours to upstate New York where there are ski resorts that take longer than 30 seconds to go down the hill.

In LA, every single street has someone walking. Every major artery has a bus that comes at least every 10 mins during rush hour, and I made extensive use of the busses before the pandemic. In other words, because of this sprawling high frequency bus network, the streetcar feel of the city never went away. Commercial corridors are sustained if they are on a bus line with decent ridership. My bus stop was even able to sustain a man who would be there every day in a canopy tent, selling solely roasted peanuts and socks (I'd like to think he started with a wider selection then ended up refining his inventory to his best selling commodities). Also on that corner was a cell phone repair store that also sold excellent crepes, my barbershop, a fruit seller, several weekend vendors, two taco trucks, a pizza shop and night club, several filipino restaurants, four markets, and in the evenings a churro vendor. And this is a rather unremarkable corner in the Rampart Village at first glance, but teeming with vibrancy for the pedestrian.

I walk down a random residential street in LA, and I have good odds of encountering someone selling elote, or sliced fruit, or a truck selling whole fruit directly out the back. The city feels like it's teeming with life, teeming with entrepreneurs, teeming with small business. Before the pandemic, it was rare to see a vacant storefront. Even now, local businesses are doing a lot better than I anticipated and few are folding, versus Cleveland where it seemed like in any given commercial corridor that wasn't a brand new strip mall, vacancy might be 80%.

In short, a vibrant city is like a vibrant ocean reef. Teeming with all walks of life everywhere you look.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by konjin on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:25PM (#24699515)
A formerly poor neighborhood in the process of being gentrified.

Hilariously enough my artist friends are moving to the racist white trash neighborhoods because those are the only places where they can afford the rent. Here's hoping an art school drop out doesn't get ideas in such an environment.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by konjin on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:14PM (#24699337)
This is a very consumerist world view (get opportunity and experiences) that not everyone believes in. I choose to live frugally so I can drop jobs when I find projects that interest me more than whatever I'm doing at the time.

For example I have spent the last week reading a very interesting book on transcendental number theory which is completely pointless for any job but has given me a lot more satisfaction than trying the latest ethnic fusion $500 a plate cuisine my peers seem to go insane over. Were it not for forest fires I would have moved to the mountains since sci-hub has made university libraries largely pointless.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by cvhashim on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:11PM (#24699281)
Agreed. But on the other hand, we live in a connected and distributed world. You could always meet new people and colleagues through virtual networking events, virtual hackathons, even niche subreddits/HN/indiehackers etc.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by swashboon on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:13PM (#24699318)
They were on track to be retired by the time they turned 40 by for the most part having very high incomes and very low overhead - they were planning on spending much more time on experiences then they were able to before.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by oblongx on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:04PM (#24699202)
to each their own I suppose
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by iancmceachern on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:07PM (#24699238)
And weather where you can enjoy the outdoors more than 3 months a year.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by ericye16 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:03PM (#24699186)
What do two developers who are DINK need 6 bedrooms for? Genuinely curious.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by leetcrew on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:36PM (#24699661)
I don't think DINK implies a lack of desire for children, rather the current state of not having any (and consequently a large amount of disposable income).

in my experience, people with large incomes often have more rooms in their house than they actually need for day-to-day life. sometimes it's just a flex, but often they expect to host their extended family and/or friends (and even their families) over the holidays. nobody needs a second kitchen and four extra bedrooms, but it does make bringing the whole family together under one roof a lot less tense.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by user5994461 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:11PM (#24699287)
1 bedroom for them + 2 bedrooms for the future kids + 2 rooms for office/storage/miscellaneous.

It's really not hard to find use for rooms.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by tzs on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @02:08PM (#24700655)
I live alone and managed to find uses for 3, and I sleep on a couch in the living room, so am not using a bedroom for a bed. If I slept on a bed, I'd be able to make use of 4 bedrooms.

One is an exercise room. It's the first photo here [1].

The one in the second photo is the electronics and music room. Table on the left for my electronics stuff, and piano on the right (and guitars out of frame on the right, along with a bookshelf full of music books).

Third bedroom is the library, covered by the next two photos. 10 bookshelves.

I could easily see two developers use 6 bedrooms. 1 for sleeping, 1 for a library, 1 for exercise, 1 for a join hobby for interest, and 1 for each for a hobby or interest that the other doesn't share...and that's without even considering using a bedroom as a dedicated office for working from home.

[1] https://imgur.com/a/lVmMv86

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by nunez on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:45PM (#24699780)
1 bedroom for themselves, 2 offices, 3 cat rooms, one spare
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by danans on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @03:43PM (#24701566)
I get what you're saying, but even though I also think that's a ridiculous amount of space for two people without kids, plenty of people's purchase decisions are based on factors beyond the functional.

Some people like feeling of living in a palace. We have after all for millennia equated living in huge spaces with class and prosperity, and The industrial age, especially in last 30 years, has enabled more people than ever to live in palaces.

Of course, heating a six bedroom palace in Minnesota is no joke.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by stagger87 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:06PM (#24699223)
Who said they needed 6 bedrooms?
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by swashboon on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:06PM (#24699226)
they each had home offices and they were "centrally" located for family gatherings. mostly they just wanted the location.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by hardwaregeek on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:15PM (#24699346)
I'm skeptical that the food/services/entertainment is actually better. What's the Asian food scene in Minneapolis? Can you get Sichuan, Hunan, Henan, and Yunnan or is it just that one Sichuan place?

How about the movie theaters or theaters? I went from New York to Seattle and finding a theater that showed non-blockbusters was really hard. When I did find one, they were always three months behind New York. If I wanted to watch, say, Parasite, when could I do that? Four, five months after New York?

There's definitely some appeal to Minneapolis. You can't rent a jetski in New York and you certainly can't afford a mansion. But you also can't watch the latest Palm D'Or and get Yunnan noodles in Minneapolis.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by strictnein on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:23PM (#24699465)
There are well known theaters in Minneapolis that focus on indie films.

The restaurant scene regularly wins James Beard awards.

Asian food seems to lean more Korean, Vietnamese (possibly from the large Hmong population in the state), and Thai.

Also, it would be hard to sound more pretentious.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by hardwaregeek on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:27PM (#24699543)
Haha fair. I realize I sound very elitist there. Apologies. I agree that Minneapolis probably has wonderful theaters, food and other attractions, but I am skeptical that they're better than Boston or New York.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by renewiltord on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @01:39PM (#24700392)
Well, I think that's just a mismatch in your desire vectors. A couple I know moved to Austin and the guy visited me recently in SF. He was just so happy to be able to eat all the Asian food here. I'm like him as well: I'd like a variety of cuisine that is actually simply not available in most places in America. I also want to be close to major airports, live in a highly ethnically diverse place, the ocean, and a general non-authoritarian vibe. If I lived in the Midwest I'm probably not going to be hyper thrilled.

My genuine hope is that people who don't want the things I do go to places where they're happy. Jobs being located where I want to live actually harms my overall QoL.

Anyway, I hope the dot product of feature availability and desire rise for places that are not San Francisco.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by throwaway0a5e on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @01:30PM (#24700296)
>I worked with two developers in Boston who were DINK (Double Income No Kids) and they sold their Boston condo, moved to the Midwest (Minneapolis) and bought a six bedroom house on a lake and two jet-skis for the same price as their condo. Their cost of living went down tremendously. By their own standards they lost nothing compared to Boston (food/services/entertainment actually got better) except that they had to deal with people on the Coast saying how boring it must be.

Not understanding that other people might not want to live exactly the way you do is probably the most stereotypical Massachusetts thing ever.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by curiousllama on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @01:05PM (#24700034)
For those jealous: they probably could use their jetskis from mid June to the late August, and stored them the rest of the year.

Minnesota is cold.

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by ryathal on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @02:31PM (#24700869)
Then you just switch to snowmobiles...
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by jrockway on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @11:57AM (#24699103)
Not that winter in Boston is particularly pleasant, but I feel like the jetskis are going to be a lot less fun when it's -40 out.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by samschooler on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:05PM (#24699214)
Trade out jetskis for snowmobiles my friend
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by myself248 on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @01:24PM (#24700236)
Jetskis in summer, snowmobiles in winter.

Bass boat in the summer, ice-fishing shanty in winter.

Hiking in summer, hiking wearing more layers in winter.

We do just fine. :)

Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by pavlov on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:03PM (#24699196)
Why does a childless couple need six bedrooms? They must have a lot of guests coming to Minneapolis.
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by lwhalen on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @12:21PM (#24699441)
Last time I checked, this country wasn't "to each according to their need". They wanted it, they could afford it, so they went out and got it :-)
Re:Hiring for tech jobs has increased more than 100% in thes... by pavlov on Tuesday October 06, 2020 @02:01PM (#24700601)
Sure, why not. Just curious because this was presented as something generally desirable.