This is becoming the dark-pattern-du-jour.

I get this with videoconferencing too (webex, teams), where the app starts downloading and the ability to do what you want (use the browser) is hidden or delayed until you've failed.

I noticed that too. A few weeks ago, clicking on a Zoom link in your browser would trigger an automatic download of the app installer (which I don’t want). The webpage would still display an “or launch in the browser” link. But yesterday I noticed the link was gone, thinking the only option was to install the app (which I still don’t want). But it turns out the browser link appears after a 5-second delay.

I wonder how many people installed the app thinking it was the only option now. I assume a lot of people. Or how to increase your install numbers with that one weird trick.

Very sneaky.

I have found the Windows 10 Sandbox feature quite useful to deal with the random teleconferencing software. It fires up an empty Windows 10 HyperV VM in a few seconds, audio is passed through both ways. After the session is finished, close the VM and everything is gone.

I didn’t know there was a web mode. I’ve been using my iPad for zoom, because it’s the only way I could think of to sandbox it.

If you mean dark as in Darth Vader choke grip dark, and not dark as in subtle under the radar manipulation dark pattern, then yes.

I realise HN isn't known for its sense of humour, but if this trend doesn't justify an analogy about being in a cloud city, setting a trap, someone altering a deal, and praying it isn't altered any further, I don't know what does.

I wonder how long until this gets hacked, and someone releases a cracked firmware with this idiocy removed. Clearly, the functionality is already there if it can be accessed "3 times".

This is the dark side of the "update culture" --- forcing you to take all the things you don't want along with the bug fixes. Aided by dire security warnings of not updating, it's a perfect way to achieve control over your userbase.

More likely there to be a security breach at Netgear & similar companies within next 2-5years. Of course the registered data would be exposed and downloaded.

You can probably install tomato, ddwrt, or openwrt.

Until they lock down the bootloaders...

I have serious doubts. Having worked with switch ASIC vendors before (Marvell, Broadcom), they require you to sign a mile long NDA before you can even access datasheets.

If you can get the switch vendor to release a GPL archive (which is often a struggle in of itself) I have never seen them release the source code to manage the switch ASIC. That's always built as an out-of-tree module which is not released as part of the GPL archive.

Many switches are not even running Linux, it's quite typical to see eCos, VxWorks, or an RTOS (e.g. ThreadX) on a switch.

tl;dr - even if the switch runs Linux (many don't), it is very unlikely you will have the datasheet and/or reference implementation for managing the switch ASIC

All low end proprietary network gear is going managed by cloud. Ubiquiti on the soho side and now consumer.

Open source is the only equipment you can trust to not adopt this model as it’s much more profitable than shipping a box once every five years.

Netgear isn't (wasn't?) really low-end though. At least not priced as such. One would think they'd be making enough without having to resort to such tactics.

You're right Ubiquiti did it though and I believe their devices are priced even higher. (Edit: note the post next to mine says you can opt out of this.)

I agree replacing the stock firmware with an open-source aftermarket one like OpenWRT is the way to go but there's still the moral dilemma of supporting such practices with your wallet.

I was also thinking if this could be an attempt to thwart the second-hand market for their devices? Is the binding to the online account permanent, or maybe it requires unbinding the previous account first?

You can get a $20-40 Netgear router at Walmart.

I would posit that MikroTik is so far not doing this insanity, and price-wise is not far off from NetGear.

Nor DrayTek, AFAIK. And those are the two brands that I consistently see recommended for SOHO network gear these days. They don't have the flashy UI of something like Ubiquiti, so you do have to know what you're doing to set them up, but they seem to make reliable hardware and solid firmware.

Why can't we have network equipment that's designed from the ground up to run open source router firmwares? When my ISP gives me new networking hardware, the first thing I do is look for ways to flash new firmware on it or put it into bridge mode.

There's librerouter actually, but Is more intended for mesh network scenarios.

https://librerouter.org/

It's unfortunate that Ubiquiti is forcing telemetry on users. Having everything integrate into UniFi Controller is pretty neat. Like enough so that if I didn't already have an APU2 running pfSense, I'd very likely buy a UDM Pro despite it being immense overkill.

It's optional with Ubiquiti.

I believe it's no longer optional on the new UDM and UDM Pro devices

... but the telemetry isn't, IIRC.

Is it not? I disabled diagnostic and analytics reporting, though it does occasionally ask me to turn it back on.

Is there additional telemetry that cannot be disabled?

When they pushed the firmware, iirc the telemetry was done without notice, opted in and enabled by default, and there was no way to actually opt out until _another firmware update after the uproar_

Ubiquiti has never cared about security, if they did they wouldn't have been scammed for $40,000,000 via a literal scam email.

If Ubiquiti staff has the non-existent procedures and corporate security for this to happen, they surely don't care about your privacy or security.

They didn't scammed, they washed some of the investors money. These kind of attacks are ridiculously hard to believe.

So what is the alternative nowadays?

Got it! Thank you for that context. I'm pretty sporadic about updates so I more than likely missed the gap when it was enabled by default and not available to be disabled.

Not cool to do that :(.

I'd argue the continued "ask you to turn it on" just in the hopes that you might eventually do it to shut it up is also a terrible antipattern.

How handy, that should be plenty of logins to install Fresh Tomato on the router.

I used Tomato until around 2010 where I switched to dd-wrt, then around 2014 went with openwrt and haven't really followed Tomato in the last 10 years.

I wouldn't mind going back to where I started and using Tomato again, so I was curious what major thing(s) they've done in the last 10 years and why you would chose Tomato over dd-wrt or openwrt.

> why you would chose Tomato over dd-wrt or openwrt

As far as I know the choice is constrained by the SoC in the device you have (or are planning to get): generally, Tomato has better support for Broadcom devices, and OpenWRT works better on Atheros. DD-WRT should be more balanced in this aspect. (And predictably, open-source support for MediaTek devices is the most patchy.)

I haven't really used Tomato. Between DD-WRT and OpenWRT, the former is arguably easier to set up (through the GUI), while the latter can offer more functionality (with no hardcoded settings and a huge repository of installable packages). OpenWRT has higher memory and storage requirements though.

I use Tomato because it seems to have the best support for the Netgear routers I've owned. Not much has changed in the way that I use it, other than the GUI has been updated. Fresh Tomato is the only fork that gets updated anymore, and it is mostly bug-fixes and updating the various Linux packages, not new features.

What is the benefit/incentive for Netgear? Why are they pulling such a move?

Seems like both that as well as a way to ramp into SAS subscription nonsense. Who would have thought that despicable model would make its escape from B2B into the retail market...

Isn't it more likely that's it's a push to more lucrative subscription services?

Could you clarify what you're claiming here? The obvious interpretation seems far fetched.

The money is in managed services.

Unless you use some cloud offering they have, there is no need for “managed services”.

Buy router, plug it in, change password and rarely any setting required for average user.

Not worth the monthly fees and data collection on users (name, email, location, credit card,...)