OK, but please don't post unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to Hacker News.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24523185.

I’m sad to say you may find the grass is always greener on the other side - government corruption exists everywhere that government exists.

Theres a sliding scale of it though. The disinformation and anti-intellectual campaigns are generally weaker in mainland Europe and as a consequence the governments are less broken.

The US is at the point where 30-40% of the country would drink bleach and shoot their neighbor at the presidents command while probably similar numbers are functionally illiterate. Not to say the democracy has been functioning, but you can't have a functional one with these preconditions.

And its structurally intentional. This is all a product of decades of machination and effort to craft this cultural zeitgeist of zealotry and active war against one another while robber barons pillage the commons.

There's a tendency to overstate the popularity of our politicians. The President received 46% of the vote with 56% turnout, which means only 26% of the eligible vote. And many of those voters "plugged their nose" at the polls (though they may do it again).

We have minority rule in this country, and many people don't realize how small the minority is. Both political parties are hugely unpopular (even with their own members sometimes) and fail to represent the majority.

The minority is even smaller if you consider how few states determine the outcome, especially with primaries.

It's by design.

I've said, and I'll say it again, from 1776 to 2020, the US was never really a democracy. The power was not in the hands of the people.

> The US is at the point where 30-40% of the country would drink bleach and shoot their neighbor at the presidents command

It sounds like you may have succumbed to some of that disinformation yourself

Then talk me down from my lofty vantage because looking at ICE internment camps and seeing women forcibly sterilized en masse is making it awfully hard to not conflate my WW2 history curriculum with the present day.

To be fair, there was only one doctor forcibly sterilizing women, and it appeared to be for personal profit rather than some eugenics directive from above. It's bad, but it's quite as bad as you're making it out to be.

[deleted: irrelevant to RGB]

If we're going to compare it to WW2 where they were doing experiments on humans and running eugenics projects, I think we should acknowledge that this is fundamentally different than that. Someone who didn't read the intercept story [1] might take the WW2 comparison too literally and think we've begun official mass sterilization programs. We haven't. What happened is tragic and awful, but it's not the same thing that Hitler did.

[1] https://theintercept.com/2020/09/17/forced-sterilization-ice...

ICE internment camps are in no way comparable to WW2 events.

Why don't you live somewhere else for 10+ years and then report back how much better it is over there. Until then your opinion is not worth much.

Unfortunately, in a global world run mostly by the US, China and Russia, Europe won't be immune from these effects; in fact, it isn't, since such ideology is clawing through there as well. Moving away will work in the short run, but it will only delay the inevitable.

The only way the entire world gets through this is an equal amount of intelligent, thrifty democratic zealotry and luck. If we fall, it's only a matter of time until the entire world goes with.

Your exaggeration hurts your argument.

He was correct on the lungs issue. There is a treatment that involved UV light tube inserted into the lungs.

I don’t think it panned out, but it is a real thing.

He was literally talking about consuming disinfectants. His fans somehow retconned that to a soviet study from the 70s that went nowhere, and somehow acted like that was better.

If you are not an American it's hard to understand the extent to which there is a cultural vortex where everything around you feels manufactured.

I left seven years ago and now live in a terrible third-world dictatorship actually. It's not that America is so bad to live in (if you have some money), but that things should be much better for young people especially and the justifications for why it can't be better are so deeply warped.

I see this on HN all the time - there will be some discussion about a problem that America has, and some one will suggest some solution. And then there'll be resounding cries of "that's impossible, too expensive, can't be done etc", but the suggested solution is something that > 50% of other western nations already do and there's plenty of evidence for it's effectiveness.

And often, implementing that solution is much cheaper than inaction, and people still complain about cost.

Except when the solution is war.

Those other nations have very different setups though. I don't believe anyone thinks it's "impossible, too expensive" as in physically impossible, but rather "impossible to do it and keep the basic setup of the American society as it is".

Of course it's possible for the US to have the same social systems as European nations, but every American would have to pay a lot more taxes. I understand "it's impossible" to mean "it's impossible to do in this configuration". You can build a sky scraper instead of a single family home, but it's impossible to do on the same budget.

Also this is a good article written a few years ago that tries to tamp down a bit of the RBG cult, and that she should have retired during Obamas term if she really was concerned about keeping a liberal justice on the SCOTUS.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2018/11/what-cult-ruth-...

When? Was she to have perfect foresight in the first two years of Obama's two terms that that was her only window?

When she was ~75 years old, and that doesn't take any political foresight to know she was old then.

The foresight wasn't about her being old, the foresight was about just how much the next Republican administration would skirt precedence and the rule of law.

It was obvious she should have retired then. I think she was great but her not retiring during Obama’s last term was arrogance. And now there is a good chance that filling the Supreme Court with another republican justice will motivate a lot of anti-trump voters who will hold their nose and vote him in just to pack the courts.

I said the first two years of his first term. That was her only window.

That is absurd. She could have retired halfway through Obama’s second term. Obama didn’t have any political courage or will to fight McConnell. He was thinking “we will win the next time anyway” which was also political arrogance.

If he did have courage we would have had Merrick Garland. It wouldn’t have been easy but it would have been worth the fight. If you’re saying that he was powerless against the Republicans then what’s the point in a president?

"If Obama had courage we would have had Merrick Garland" is a non-obvious conclusion that has widespread disagreement. If you're sure it's correct, can you post your reasoning of the techniques that Obama and the Democrats could have used that would have inexorably led to Garland's confirmation? Please make the argument.

What could he have done?

You’re saying there’s no difference between, say, Denmark and Syria? You’d just flip a coin between Russia and New Zealand?

As an Irishman in Canada and previously lived in the US, I can safely and concretely say the political and governmental grass is greener in both countries above the US.

As someone from outside of the United States, no. The treasonous corruption in the American Republican party is uniquely much much worse than basically anything going on in the rest of the western world.

Edit: The clusterfuck that was Brexit was pretty bad though.

Sure, but I could name many countries that are not nearly as bad as the USA is now. The same could be said comparing the USA to say, Belarus. Both are bad, clearly Belarus has much worse corruption.

Nah. I’ve lived in other countries, but none as long as America. It is truely the door through which satan enters the world.

That's true, but the united states is the big prize, which means the US is where greed and corruption is playing hardest. Having lived in the US and out of it, I believe that other places and not less selfish or petty, but there are places where greed and corruption just doesn't have it's shit together.

Honestly, no. The USA is uniquely fucked up. Seriously, everyone else in the rest of the stable world-leading countries is looking in with disbelief every week

Canada's looking fairly decent at the moment, however similar threats and pressure from global bad actors to deal with including in political arena.

As a Canadian, it’s not that different.

We just had our Finance Minister quit because he was taking money from a non-profit that gets most of it’s money from the Federal gov’t. Oh and his daughter got a cushy job there too. Completely based on merit no doubt.

Trudeau says “oh we’re sorry about that”. And that’s it. No harm no foul.

He at least had the public accountability to quit.

US can't even manage to forceably remove major bad actors

Yet Trudeau, who was present at the meetings where these corrupt decisions were made gets by with a "sorry".

And which bad actors are you referring to? There are plenty of US politicians who have been guilty of corruption who have gone to prison.

> As a Canadian, it’s not that different.

As another Canadian, it is much different.

Though Trudeau et al have done two serious problems (SNC-Lavalin, We), they do not hold a candle to the grifting and absolute corruption that is Trump and GOP.

Further, the much vaunted "checks and balances" of the US system have been shown to be a complete sham given the enabling that McConnell has allowed, the court packing that went on with the Supreme Court and this is happening with the lower courts. And that's not even getting into the impeachment trial.

At least with the Westminster system the electorate can throw out bums and have a clean slate where the new party can sweep away the more terrible stuff of the previous administration. The Liberals were able to backtrack on some of worse things the previous Tories, and implement some important policies relatively quickly (e.g., climate change).

If the CPC manages to get in, at the very least they'll probably cancel the completely useless Order in Council regarding firearms, and perhaps at least implement more useful gun violence policies (like reducing inequality). Of course if they continue to reject carbon pricing (or perhaps at least move toward cap-and-trade) then their chances of getting in are slim giving the general public's view toward climate change.

If anything th me parliamentary system has fewer checks and balances since the execute and legislative branches are one in the same.

Not to mention the Canadian senate just rubber stamps everything.

I think the corruption is much better hidden in Canada and plus the lower level of political engagement, you end up with a seemingly better system, that is in fact no better.

And SNC-Lavalin was a mockery of the separation of powers. The PM tried to pressure the minister of justice to go easy on a company that was also a big fundraiser. Jesus, the US has seen that blatant amount of corruption since Nixon (maybe the Iran-Contra).

> If anything th me parliamentary system has fewer checks and balances since the execute and legislative branches are one in the same.

How are those "checks and balances" working out in the US?

At least in a Parliamentary system and major issues can be fixed with the next majority of the Opposition. In the US system it is hard to get anything passed (even when it is important), and if something bad is rammed through, good luck trying to reverse it. Unless you delegate to the Executive branch.

He had to quit when he was found out. Compared to the USA that's massively different.

Oh he didn't have to quit. That was a political decision by Trudeau. Morneau as soon as the news broke of the financial dealings, he "paid back the $40k in travel expenses I had forgotten about".

Trudeau made a calculated political decision - Moreau could hurt the chances of the Liberals staying in office, so he had to go. It also avoided a separate inquiry into Morneau, but at least we'll see what the inquiry finds about the charity overall.

And beyond the Conservative party, nobody in Canada seems to really care.

Very few countries at this extent.

Whitewash much?

Sure, but, for example, Jacinda Ardern isn't Donald Trump or Boris Johnson.

Ardern campaigned on cutting legal immigration and became Prime Minister in coalition deal with the New Zealand First Party.

I'm okay with that.

Is the point to say that Ardern is somehow above it all? She just suspended the election, citing Covid, even though there were no transmissions for over 3 months.

She didn't suspend the election, she delayed it by 4 weeks. Her opponent in fact argued for that to happen.

And at the time they did have a new cluster of locally-transmitted cases.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-53796434

Err - what? The whole reason the election has been delayed is because of community transmission in Auckland. Additionally all parties have agreed to the suspension. In fact it was the opposition who called for the intitial suspension.

The major opposition party and most of the minor parties wanted the election to be suspended. It wasn't electioneering, it was literally just making sure thousands of people didn't go to the polls during a pandemic.

Of course I will have zero surprise if the right wingers now start pointing back to it as if it was a bad thing, because blind opposition to everything is just what they do. But at the time everyone was calling for it.

Given how broadly the United States exerts influence around the world, I feel obligated to stay and work to make things better.

And there is the right answer.

If you are an American and you are professing hate for America (as many in this thread are) I feel bad for you.

This is my home and I love it here. America has made mistakes, it will make more, it has corrupt people, evil people, good people, inventive people, thieving people but it's contributed quite a lot to this world socially, technologically and in many other ways.

I find this entire hate for America thing shallow, short-sided, ignorant and deeply disturbing and have very little use for people who professes this sentiment.

I always found it interesting that part of the American mythology is that it's a safe haven for the oppressed and ravaged peoples of the world who left their home country for a better future, but that the exact same thing, applied to the US, is somehow unthinkable.

What if you, at some point, find that the America you love makes it abundantly clear that it does not love you back, though? At risk of affirming Godwin's law, I'm sure that a lot of people living in Nazi Germany thought Germany was their home and loved it there, too. But at some point, you have to cut your losses, though.

Warmongering I'll agree with. Powerful interests have made a lot of bad things happen. We can't change the past but we can and should work to change the future.

However, I'm quite pleased we defeated Nazi Germany and hastened the downfall of the Soviet Union. The rest of the world should be as well.

Racist! Nope. There are racist people here. The country as a whole and an institution is not racist at this point and that very simply an untrue (if popular at the moment) claim.

Indoctrination. Ya, like that from the public school system and Reddit being displayed in this thread?

Here's the bottom line for Americans. You live here. There are lots of good things about the essential set up and circumstances of this country. You presumably have to live here. What you have from the past is what you have. So stop your juvenile whining and destructive misplaced hatred and start doing something positive and make the place you live a place you want to be.

You can still vote even as an expat...

Voting is a very tiny part of what needs to be done to actually fix this mess. Voting alone can never fix these kinds of issues.

I've been living abroad for almost 6 years. I definitely recommend anyone interested to try the same. It's not without challenges.

As an immigrant to this country, you have no idea how good things are here in the US. It would be nice to trade those unhappy with the US with those that would be grateful to be here.

Thanks for posting this, and I'll join in support of this message even though it will cost a few internet points.

Thank you very much for this comment!

Venezuela, Cuba and Vietnam too. Pretty much anyone that has suffered under authoritarianism and communism and wants to live in a country where they have freedoms and are rewarded for their hard work is welcome in my book.

Personally, I love this country. Best of luck to you.

If you think it's better out there, please reconsider carefully.

Out of curiosity, where are you heading?

Somewhere you are taxed more?

Somewhere with more illegal immigration?

Somewhere your children are less safe from predators?

Yeah, thought not. You don't realize how good a country you live in. There are several billion who would trade their family's place with yours.

You might want to see how this election turns out, first.

Election results don't change what people believe and value.

The current situation in the US has been a long time coming, and it will take a long time to resolve.

You’re nuts if think it hasn’t always been this way.

Hell, a senator beat the shit out of another senator back in the 1850’s. In the senate.

Yes, right before a massive civil war broke out that killed hundreds of thousands of Americans. I don't think you're making the point that you think you're making.

That's one example. Politics has always been a nasty business. People who think it's worse now are either ignorant of the past or lack perspective.

You may be right about politics alone. But there's a much greater division in the US right now of worldviews, of which politics is only the most visible interface--probably because politics uniquely forces us to choose collectively one way or another.

It hasn't always been this way. It simply has been.

The best we can look forward to is a decade of civil war if Biden manages to take office.

Unless someone figures out how to neutralize Facebook and Q immediately. Biden's still talking about being able to make deals with McConnell. We're totally fucked.

It will of course be incomprehensibly darker if Trump manages to hold power.

That's correct, the country is fkd either way. If T. wins, he will cement his dictatorship. If he loses, even if removed from power, the country will be close to civil war.

A bit melodramatic. Unless 95% of the rest of the world is a hellscape of a country too.