There is a scientific consensus that being obese reduces your life expectancy.

This is obviously a very delicate issue. We surely don't want people to be shamed or ashamed for being overweight. Nothing good comes from shame.

But there is serious mortality and morbidity associated with obesity. And as a society, we don't seem to have much of a problem shaming people who fall into other risk categories such as smoking or drug use.

While this may seem harsh at a surface level, are you really sure nothing good comes from shame? Is shame always an unhealthy emotion to experience? It seems to me that it is effective in focusing attention on potential personal misjudgement or misbehavior, and can strengthen resolve to break bad habits or otherwise ensure a better outcome for oneself going forward.

But no emotion is inherently destructive. We should feel shame at certain things. If you tripped an old lady and didn’t feel shame, I’d say you were a psychopath, or if you simply threatened to kill anyone who you didn’t like.

It’s also notable that absence of shame is characteristic of psychopathy, and even Buddhist psychology states that an absence of shame is an impediment to enlightenment.

I completely support the idea that excessive or inappropriate shame is a major part of many if not most psychological disorders. Nothing supports the idea that all shame is destructive.

On the topic of obesity, I do agree that shame is unlikely to help. In fact I suspect that shame is more likely to be part of the cause.

For a behaviour trait to exist in species far from each other in the evolutionary tree suggests there is a real survival benefit to having it.

Doesn't mean it is beneficial in all cases, or that it doesn't feel shit though!

Do we? Society as a whole benefits from shaming alcoholics, smokers, people who beat their kids etc.

Many people call that shaming. This distinction isn't as clear as you suggest.

You're right, the science refutes being fat but the parent was wondering if any science supports being fat.

Everything in this HuffPo article rings completely true for me -https://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/everything-y...

The "obese-normalization" you speak is about fat-shaming abolitionism, against discrimination in professional and social spaces because of body composition, not that such a body type is necessarily encouraged.

Furthermore the categorization of "obese", and BMI in general, has a pile of research exposing all the caveats and encouraged more granular diagnoses around mass composition for humans. You can be categorized as obese and have perfectly fine physical function. For example, pretty much every football player is overweight, most are obese. BMI charts are only a cursory step towards a proper analysis.

If you understand that obesity comes from a medical or mental condition, then a culture of fat-shaming is comparable to having a culture of shaming those suffering from PTSD or depression or birth abnormalities, et al. That sort of culture doesn't have many positive societal effects beyond pushing people into mental duress about things they are still trying to figure out how to manage. Any hyper-normalization of extreme obesity is a side effect of the propensity of such a shaming culture as it becomes more of a political statement than a medical one (or more fringe culture i.e kinks).

Being against removing this discrimination from our culture only makes sense if you believe that an effective methodology for overcoming a health problem is by being abused by society into action conformity.

Simply, if you're too fat you should be allowed to deal with that very personal issue on your own terms and not be ostracized from professional or social spaces.

The main aspect is a demonization of fatty foods, propagandized heavily by the sugar and soft drink industry, which market realities have shifted food products to compensate for the lack of flavor and satiation from fat by loading them with sugar. This is all compounded by massive corn subsidies in the US making it extremely tempting to load up recipes with cheap, sweet, calorie dense, corn syrup. (some random chart after quick search about this https://imgur.com/nvWRyrh)

When such a large portion of the population is overweight it tends to indicate a systemic problem rather than one of individual choice.

My point here though is that it’s only a minority who “can’t help it, they were born that way”. Most would be able to overcome this issue if the dynamics were different.

I see the body positivity movement as just trying to reconcile that reality. If you are already obese then you might as well try and find a way to live a happy life because you are probably never going to be slender again.

This is a weird trope. Most models are selected to be slender so they can, basically, simulate a clothes rack. No curves to draw attention!

I'm not sure the fashion industry is telling anyone this is ideal. I can't remember, in my lifetime, when skinny models were ever really looked at by society-at-large as the "right" body type. They were always seen as "skinny models". Of course there are people with all sorts of preferences, but the most celebrated models of my youth (say, Heidi Klum or Tara Banks) were relatively fit as opposed to withering.

On the other hand, many people (both men and women) end up with eating disorders trying to reach this "ideal".

But we do have to recognize the effects that are also had on people, your last sentence is a heavier weighting than your perception.

People have not been capable of separating an industry ideal from a non-industry related attractiveness ideal.

Individuals know what they like, visually and sexually. Individuals are also aware of what the seeming consensus of "should like" is, visually and sexually. Simple put, people know when other people are considered hot and what that looks like.

A distinction that doesn't really matter right?

In one example, I think it's good that clothing websites will show people in their clothes that look like their larger customers. I think it's good that this is less jarring to see due to prevalence alone. There was little utility for the polar opposite at size 0 and size 2 to model for everything, aside from overvaluing the addictiveness of frustration.

It still remains accurate to point out the health issues associated with obesity and the folly of remaining in that state.

I think it does, because it's more insidious than any sort of active movement. Are websites showing plus sized models because they want to be body positive or just because that's who research shows buys their clothing.

> It still remains accurate to point out the health issues associated with obesity and the folly of remaining in that state.

Absolutely - it's a danger, I'm not saying it's not.

My point is that you can change the narrative of a movement much more easily than you can change how a society as a whole unthinkingly deals with something. A deliberate normalization has a voice which can change what it's saying, this phenomena really doesn't.

I think websites are showing plus sized models because the movements told them "look at your customer analytics instead of assuming the status quo of people imagining they'll look like size 0 models when they wear this"

It is all very interrelated from my perspective.

If I did have an opinion I would say that a more collaborate and holistic approach with a movement's narrative is possible and necessary. For example, if some people to go to the extreme of wanting magazines to make disclaimers that models are photoshopped to help people in all BMI ranges have higher self esteem, then people normalizing unhealthy but common BMI ranges should also have disclaimers about the issues associated with remaining in that state.

While it may not be an effective means of changing their behavior it is a valid means of framing conversations around what is desirable and healthy. If we continue to allow peoples feelings about how they feel override what we objectively know to be good we will be on the fast train to hell.

“Choose not to be harmed—and you won’t feel harmed. Don’t feel harmed—and you haven’t been.” ~ Marcus Aurelius

There's no problem to solve other than being more cognizant of the costs obesity will impose on one as an individual.

Now run the numbers again with socialized healthcare. When society's tax dollars are funding your triple bypass from your 30+ BMI it's absolutely societies business.

There's a lot of middle ground between body shaming and telling people with a BMI of 40+ that they are "fine the way they are", I think.

The same can be said about most western Europe countries, yet they still have obesity rates above 20% compared to 4% in Japan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_r...

>But do go on about fat shaming being effective.

It looks like the most likely explanation here.

Why not? It works. Are you more concerned with someones feelings than their heart health? When they pass at a young age will their loved ones at their funeral think "wow, at least nobody ever hurt their feelings"?

The more people are exposed to weight bias and discrimination, the more likely they are to gain weight and become obese, even if they were thin to begin with. They’re also more likely to die from any cause, regardless of their body mass index (BMI).

Fat shaming is also linked to depression, anxiety, low self-esteem, eating disorders and exercise avoidance, Alberga said. There’s emerging evidence that the severity of harm increases when people internalize weight bias and turn it on themselves. In one study, participants with high levels of internalization of weight-bias had three times greater odds of having metabolic syndrome than those with low levels, even after controlling for BMI and other risk factors

There is also a huge difference between sharing candid concerns about someone's weight when you already know them and can be somewhat compassionate about it and shaming a random person you don't know.

Have you got some evidence for that because it sounds dubious to me.

[1] https://www.npr.org/2020/09/14/912029399/we-had-to-take-acti... (NPR: 'We Had To Take Action': States In Mexico Move To Ban Junk Food Sales To Minors)