But that's exactly what Apple wants. They want you to invest your time in their ecosystem because that prevents you from spending time in other ecosystems. Every thing they do that makes it more work for you to make an iOS or MacOS app is time you won't be spending making things for other platforms including the web.

plus, they get the added bonus that they can demand you pay 30% of various transitions that they couldn't demand if you just left it a website that happened to be PWA

Their incentives are entirely aligned not to support the latest web standards and not allow any other browsers on iOS to add them

This is an unnecessarily pessimistic view.

Yes, Apple wants us to spend all of our time interacting with / committed to their users. No, that aren’t maliciously trying to steal our time from other platforms. The thought chain ends with their platform, never considering that we even have other platforms to support.

A self-obsessed outlook is different from a deliberately sabotaging business plan, even when they present the same outward behaviors. Occam’s razor.

I am 100% convinced that mobile Safari is worse for the future of the web than IE6 ever was. And it’s 100% intentional.

Can you elaborate on what you foresee happening, and why?

On top of the now years old and still not implemented notification API, Apple recently declined to implement 16 other PWA API's, citing privacy concerns.

They could make every API opt-in or propose improvements, but they won't.

With IE6, people were at least allowed to install more capable browsers. With iOS there are no other browsers. Only user interfaces around Safari webviews.

How many apps that are just an interface to a website and could be viable as a website if only iOS Safari had push notifications would actually bring in any significant amount of revenue?

Besides that, according to the latest App Store rules, apps that just surface cross platform services aren’t required to have in app purchases.

Breaking up your question into two pieces:

> How many apps [could] be viable as a website if only iOS Safari had push notifications[?]

I’d say a lot.

> [How many of them] would actually bring in any significant amount of revenue?

Adding this caveat doesn’t change my answer—but I really don’t like what it's implying. Software is not suddenly without value just because it doesn’t make money.

> I’d say a lot

Yet you didn’t name any. If that were the case, you should be able to name the equivalent web apps on Android that must be apps on iOS.

> Software is not suddenly without value just because it doesn’t make money.

So where are those “valuable” web apps on Android? Also revenue is the most objective way to measure value.

> Also revenue is the most objective way to measure value.

Nonsense. Wikipedia must be worthless for you? What about air? Do you feel you'd breathe with more satisfaction if someone was profiting from the air you breathe?

On the other hand, there's plenty of immensely profitable things that have negative value. Cigarettes? Oil? Weapons? Opioids? I could go on and on.

And you still haven’t come up with a situation where a major developer was forced to make an iOS app and decided to be content with a PWA for Android customers.

“Value” has a definite meaning in economics. If someone is willing to pay for something, it has value to them.

I don't even care about iOS. I just despise your definition of value, since it's simply wrong and dangerous.

Whether you despise it or not. It’s the only objective measure that we have to ascertain the value that a population puts on an item.

How can it be objective when every single individual would bid a different price for the same product, if asked without being shown the market price beforehand? It's all about perception and -my friend, I have bad news for you- perception is all but objective. Yes, perception of value can be manipulated through tools like marketing. That doesn't make the product itself anymore (or less) valuable than it actually is.

That’s the issue. Anyone could respond that they have an app that valuable to only them and their best friend.

What better choice do we have than to measure value across a population? How much value a population places on something based on how much they are willing to pay is objective. Whether that value is utilitarian or based on other factors is subjective.

Are we really arguing about basic supply and demand? Yes suppliers have methods to drive demand.

> Yet you didn’t name any.

Reddit, Trello, Twitter. Probably Discord and Slack too.

I haven't used Android in years but I certainly don't see why these wouldn't work as web apps if you had push notifications. All the functionality is there.

And none of those companies thought the web app was good enough to eschew native apps on Android. Why is that?

Because they have the budgets to do both.

That's why you're asking the wrong question.

Companies don’t just spend money because they “have the budget”.

No but that doesn't refute my point, does it.

What is your point? If the vast amount of the industry thought PWAs were good enough, they wouldn’t create Android apps when a web app would do.. Companies don’t just spend money needlessly.

You should see a proliferation of cases where companies create an iOS app and a web app for everyone else.

A large amount of apps could just be a website if Apple supported more API’s. It would also bring bigger budgets to webdev teams and improve the quality of their webapps.

Care to name some web apps that are successful on Android but are required to be apps on iOS?

Why rephrase the question? Lots of apps could have been just a webapp. It doesn’t have to be popular or succesful to prove that point, because it’s the smaller apps / teams like my one man company that would profit the most. Let larger companies spend their money on squeezing out maximum performance via native code. And let me use the browser for the 10k users of my app.

If the argument is that Apple is holding back PWAs, then there should be a lot of corresponding web only apps on Android that are forced to be native on iOS. The developers would have a web app anyway for the desktop so you should see a lot of apps that are PWA apps with iOS apps.

Why should there be? There are thousands of webdevs who weren't 'forced' to be native on iOS, because they don't have knowledge and budget to be native.

You're asking the wrong question.

Whether there should be or not. The question isn’t why doesn’t every website have a native app. The question is if PWAs are good enough for Android because of its great support and not good enough for iOS. You should see a lot of companies doing iOS + Web instead of iOS + Android + Web. But that’s not the case. Companies have spoken with their budgets. They decided that it was worth the money to have native Android apps.

Could it possibly be that HN posters are wrong and PWAs aren’t good enough on Android either?

Almost all smaller e-commerce websites don't have an app. They rely on their website + e-mail notifications.

Would they enable web notifications if it was universally available? Yes. Would they enable it just for Android users? Some do. Does this say something about the quality of PWA's? You tell me. You seem to be adamant that the web sucks, yet literally millions of companies are succesful on the web without accompanying apps.

I never said the web sucks. The thesis was that Apple was holding PWAs back and given a choice, app developers wouldn’t create native iOS apps and just create web apps. If Apple’s lack of support for the necessary APIs was the deciding factor, the same developers who make native iOS apps wouldn’t go through the trouble of making native Android apps - yet they do.

No the thesis is that Apple is holding the web a a whole back. I’m not the one that says Apps like Youtube are better off or even good enough as a PWA. I’m arguing that if Apple enabled the notification API, a lot of websites and apps can save money by not replicating simple functionality in a native app. Your arguments don’t refute that at all.

If the lack of push notifications on iOS were the only thing forcing developers to create iOS apps, those same developers wouldn’t overwhelmingly be creating Android apps.

Where are all the developers who are being forced to create iOS apps but are “saving money” by not creating Android apps because PWA support is so good?

Most skip making apps all together because they rely on email notifications.

I agree. But if PWAs were good enough on Android, you should see, depending on your budget from largest to smallest:

1. Web, iOS, Android

2. Web, iOS - since PWAs are suppose to be “good enough for Android”.

3. Web

But you hardly ever see #2. Why is that?

Doesn’t matter. My point still stands. You keep repeating yours, while failing to see mine.

You’ve made a point without any evidence. If your point is that PWA’s could save developers money, rationally you should see developers saving money by only creating iOS apps and PWAs. Developers with real money on the line haven’t made that choice.

You've got it wrong, because Android has much looser review policies so these apps don't have to be web pages on that platform. People (including Apple!) push web apps on iOS to not be subject to App Store review.

It doesn’t matter. If PWAs were good enough on Android, and seeing that you would probably need to build a web app anyway. Why not just build a web app + iOS app and not build an Android app at all?

I feel your pain, for me as a strictly back-end developer it is the same when I have to make front end.

May I suggest trying to outsource this small app to a freelancer? It could be a quite time- and cost-effective small project for someone who already has extensive experience with iOS.

Email them? SMS Them? Its not pure notifications, but its far easier to implement.

I have e-mail notifications, yes. But a growing amount of people don’t check their email regularly and it gets drowned out.

Email would get drowned with all the other apps with the same idea, which is exactly why Apple shouldn’t allow it.

Why Apple shouldn't allow websites to email you instead of causing those websites to create iOS apps?

No, it's why apple shouldn't allow notifications from the web. People are already drowning in notification spam from native apps. To the point where Apple has added three different ways the OS prompts you to disable notifications.

People just allow everything and then get overloaded by all the worthless interruptions.

If Apple would make it so that websites can’t request to enable notifications, but only via manual user action, I’d still prefer that to developing an entire app to fit that goal.

You’re very much making this out to be more difficult than it actually is. If you’re a webdev throw a web browser frame in, or use react native, or just spend the few hours it takes to learn how to setup and app and push notifications and add a bullet point to your resume.

Not sure what I need a resume for. I'll probably never work for an employer and I think I'm a better farmer than a webdev.

I know how to design and build things with my hands. I also know how to design logos, websites and other things. I can code and enjoy building and maintaining the network of websites I built in the past 15 years.

But I feel I'm spreading myself too thin when I'm also learning to code in React or Dart (Flutter) for a single one-off project. I fear I won't be able to put in the hours required to become adequately proficient in another field that's constantly changing.

No you are not spreading yourself too thin. Each new language or framework you learn will teach you something you’ll use for the rest of your time programming. You may not remember everything you learn exactly, but it will help you carry conversations or know where to start should you be tasked to need those skills in the future. Also Google is your friend, you’re never going to know some language or framework so completely that you can verbatim spit out it’s docs and signatures without some reference.

The rest of what you said sounds pretty on par with the rest of the self taught programmers I’ve met (me being one of them).