News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by tbatchelli on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @04:17PM (#24412745)
How much of this issue is related to having a part of the population think that people having children is solely a private question? "You had children, why should I bear your burden!"

If none of us had children there would d be no economy to support anyone's life in, let's say, 40 years from now.

People making and raising new sane and healthy people should be considered a social and common good, for the sake of all, and should be protected and encouraged. Maybe not too many children, true, but at least enough to keep some semblance of population balance, no?

Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by nicbou on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @05:31PM (#24413692)
As I understand it, we already subsidise child-rearing through taxation. Single, childless people are taxed at a higher rate. This is fine.

However, this is happening at a smaller, more arbitrary scale. It's not "I support our future through a legally defined contribution", but "my colleague is working 25% less and still gets paid the same, but I need to take PTO to get a haircut".

I think it depends on how you frame it.

1. We should all get equal treatment. Parents enjoys benefits that other employees don't. Their personal life can affect their performance, but that doesn't apply to other employees.

2. We're all in this situation together. To each according to their needs, from each according to their capacity.

I think both are true.

Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by ak217 on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @09:08PM (#24415581)
Not disputing your other points, but:

> we already subsidise child-rearing through taxation. Single, childless people are taxed at a higher rate

In the US, being married is a tax advantage only if one partner earns much more than the other. Otherwise it's a wash.

In the US, the child tax credit is $2K per child per year. In most cases, this does not come close to covering the costs of raising a child.

So, no, for most people being discussed in the article (generally, dual earners in HCOL US areas), child-rearing is not significantly subsidized through taxation (at least not at the income tax level as you implied).

Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by ergocoder on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @09:57PM (#24415957)
But having child is your choice.

It's so strange to complain that government doesn't cover the cost of your child. You choose to have your child. I'm sure you plan to support your child.

This is like me complaining that government doesn't subsidize my Tesla.

Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by piva00 on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @05:23AM (#24419056)
A Tesla is a consumer good, a child is an investment in the future of the society.

I'm childless, I will very likely be childless my whole life but this attitude is both: very naive, very ignorant and very very reductionist.

I'm happy that my taxes here in Sweden pay for child support, childcare and schools that I won't ever use, because that is the basic fabric of this society.

Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by ergocoder on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:00PM (#24422397)
It's an investment that the parents will reap 10000x the benefit compared to everyone else in the society.

Also, it's very rare that people think they are going to bear a child to improve society. Adoption would make much much more sense if that was their goal.

In any case, people want to have children, sure.

Then they complain that having a child is so tough so much hardship (e.g. no vacation ever in this thread, child tax credit is not enough). Then, they turn to society to support them in an unfair way

Almost everyone knows the estimated cost and effort upfront. There are tons of materials and prior experience.

It's like me spending all my cash on Tesla and then complain that society doesnt support me enough.

Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by tbatchelli on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @10:45PM (#24416372)
Having a child is not in the same league as buying a Tesla. That Tesla won’t be a contributing member of society and pay taxes when you retire.

Yes it is a decision. Sometimes selfish, most often foolish, but in all cases needed. And all benefit.

Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by tbatchelli on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @07:25PM (#24414852)
It is complicated, I agree.

Tax cuts don't really make that much of a difference at the end of the day. Loss of job promotions, inability to take the same financial risks, childcare, education, lack of downtime, etc, all I think have a much bigger impact financially.

But it is also understandable to think that it is unfair to make non-parents pick up the slack for those who are parents. Although as a society we already pick up the slack for those who are unable to work.

Again, it is a question of wether we think there is a social good to have some of us raise children to become, hopefully, taxpaying adults, and if this is a common good, then who and how should bear the burden? Only the parents?

Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by ngngngng on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @04:31PM (#24412954)
Yep. If you want to see something scary, go browse reddit.com/r/childfree

It's an entire community of people that feel like heroes for not having children, and despise the thought of even having to come into contact with a child. It carries a similar religious fervor to veganism but it doesn't actually help anyone or anything.

Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by asciident on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @12:39AM (#24417189)
I'm not advocating for the mindset there, but can't you see a justification of why that might be? I think reasonable people can debate whether or not overpopulation is the main contributor to the environmental disaster upon us that is an existential crises for humans on this planet. Under that perspective, wouldn't those who chose not to have children, while it was an unpopular option, be the heroes?
Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by rimliu on Wednesday September 09, 2020 @04:04AM (#24418556)
It is underpopulation, not overpopulation that will be a problem soon (and already is in some parts of the world).
[dead]
Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by garden_hermit on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @05:32PM (#24413698)
It starts to approach eugenics pretty quickly, which we as a society have pretty much rejected.

But we do regulate the raising of children, to a certain extent. For example, we regulate school curriculum to install a certain set of values and knowledge in children. As a society, we also attempt to regulate certain kinds of parenting, by making certain forms of child abuse and neglect illegal.

Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by seattletech on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @05:54PM (#24413954)
Well we tolerate eugenics in some ways though. Look at the prevalence of Down's syndrome children now vs. the advent of accurate prenatal testing
Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by DoreenMichele on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @09:07PM (#24415575)
I was curious what you were trying to say. I assumed you meant that Down's Syndrome is down due to testing and abortion. But I found this:

The vast majority of screen-positive results are false, yet encourage invasive diagnostic procedures that pose additional risks to unborn babies. As a direct consequence many babies who do not have Down syndrome are lost. We estimate that current screening practice in England and Wales reduces annual live births of babies with Down syndrome by around 660 and leads to the losses of 400 babies without Down syndrome. Although prenatal diagnoses are becoming more frequent, more babies with Down syndrome are being born (up 25% over 15 years).

https://library.down-syndrome.org/en-us/research-practice/12...

Families with known risk of genetic disorders often take the issue very seriously and it's a complicated topic.

Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by duutfhhh on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:05PM (#24415132)
With yearly renewal fees. And if parents fail to renew license, it becomes illegal for their children to walk on public roads.
Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by harshalizee on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @05:45PM (#24413848)
Because it is a violation of very basic Human Rights? Not to mention the can of worms that will open. Who gets to decide who's worthy of procreation? Based on political, social, economic values? This is like codifying systemic discrimination into fundamental human rights.
Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by nfw2 on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @09:21PM (#24415685)
One of my friends was homeless as a child. He is now deaf because of an ear infection that was left untreated. Bringing children into a world when food and safety can't be provided is a violation of human rights as well.

Yes, Child Protective Services should have prevented this from happening to my friend. It didn't.

If parents can't prove they have the means to raise a child, CPS proactively taking custody away from the parent doesn't seem that unreasonable to me.

Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by derwiki on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @08:58PM (#24415509)
Not America, but my mother in law had to pass a test in China in the mid/late 80s to have a child.
Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by jajsd3udf on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @07:53PM (#24415022)
I would turn this idea around: instead of barring certain people from reproducing (which has obvious issues), a society could require that all new parents take a course, go through counseling, or something like that, after which if they're deemed unfit to provide a healthy and safe environment the newborn would have to be adopted. This assumes it can be done to no economic cost to the new parents. It also assumes there are uncontroversial ways to determine fitness to parent. Basically a similar system to what most countries have in place for dealing with children in distress, but proactive rather than reactive. I'm sure there are issues with this idea as well, and the pragmatic way of trying to educate prospective parents is probably the best we can do, but it seems worth exploring.
Re:Tech firms face growing resentment of parent employees du... by nicbou on Tuesday September 08, 2020 @05:22PM (#24413578)
Who hands out the licences?