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Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by goalieca on Monday August 31, 2020 @09:05PM (#24337510)
> Analyzing medical death rate data over an eight-year period, Johns Hopkins patient safety experts have calculated that more than 250,000 deaths per year are due to medical error in the U.S.

https://hub.jhu.edu/2016/05/03/medical-errors-third-leading-...

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by elliekelly on Monday August 31, 2020 @10:44PM (#24338059)
I’ve mentioned it here before but the book “Black Box Thinking” by Matthew Syed is an interesting read in this regard. It really highlights how important it is to design a system that’s focused on error reduction (like aviation) rather than focused on allocating blame (like medicine).

IIRC there’s a chapter in the book about patient safety correlating with how “friendly” the OR nurses perceive a surgeon. The implication being that if someone makes a mistake they’re more likely to fess up a nicer surgeon (who will then have the opportunity to correct the error) and more likely to cover it up or ignore if they might get chewed out for bringing it up.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by matheusmoreira on Monday August 31, 2020 @11:02PM (#24338128)
> It really highlights how important it is to design a system that’s focused on error reduction (like aviation) rather than focused on allocating blame (like medicine).

How can we change this culture though? For some reason doctors attract insane lawsuits seeking hundreds of thousands of dollars in damages. People don't seem to be so litigious when they're against rich corporations with lots of lawyers at their disposal.

If this continues, the only possible result is defensive medicine since doctors will need every bit of proof and documentation in order to prove their innocence in the event of a lawsuit.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by yummypaint on Monday August 31, 2020 @11:52PM (#24338382)
Doing things like making sure medical staff arent forced to work while sleep deprived would go a long way to avoiding errors in the first place. Policy changes that walk the walk and substantively prioritize safety over profit can help create safety culture from the top down. Having more staff available in general can also make redundancy checks more feasible.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by adrianN on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @12:52AM (#24338673)
It is my understanding that the error rates skyrocket when patients are handed off between medical staff. Longer shifts reduce the number of hand-offs and thereby reduce the number of errors overall, despite sleep deprivation being a source of errors in itself.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by carlmr on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @02:47AM (#24339153)
Considering error rates due to sleep deprivation must rise at some point and the hand off error rate is probably quite constant there may be an optimal hand off.

However that doesn't mean this is the global optimum. There are probably ways to reduce hand off errors, e.g. by introducing hand off check lists. Sleep deprivation errors on the other hand can only be reduced by reducing sleep deprivation, giving crystal meth to the doctor (probably unethical and unsustainable) and by general poka yoke style changes that will have benefits even when not sleep deprived.

So the global optimum can probably be shifted to somewhere where the doctor is not sleep deprived and the hand off is organized. Which is also more humane towards the doctor.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by eru on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @06:10AM (#24340121)
You could probably have overlapping shifts?

After eg 6h of work, don't accept any new patients, but finish treating the ones you already have, if possible.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by carlmr on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @06:34AM (#24340273)
Overlapping shifts could just be seen as a better hand-off. However I think the hand-off issues are probably the same that you have in any project. There's a lot of implicit knowledge. E.g. you've noticed patient X was breathing heavily, but you weren't sure if it meant something, if you see that again 10h later you might investigate, while for the other doctor if he started after 8h he might notice it for the first time, and have a similar wait and see approach.

In this case one procedural way to make this better would be to teach doctors to write up anything unusual they notice during the day, and read this list of unusual events during hand-off to the next doctor.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by eru on Wednesday September 02, 2020 @12:53AM (#24350081)
That's a good idea, but I was suggesting something slightly different: try to minimize the number of hand-offs by overlapping shifts and stopping the acceptance of new cases for the outgoing personnel.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by michaelt on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @06:19AM (#24340173)
> there may be an optimal hand off.

Presumably the constraint here is having an integer number of shifts per 24-hour day - 3x8 hour, 2x12 hour, 1x24 hour and so on.

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by carlmr on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @06:31AM (#24340249)
Technically a day is not a hard constraint in the short term. Maybe if you do one 36h shift, however unlikely, produces fewer errors than a 12h shift with 2 hand-offs. Long term we know about adverse health effects of inconsistent sleeping patterns, so those would factor in as well.
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by sampo on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @04:37AM (#24339683)
> How can we change this culture though?

There are articles on how the early aviation had too much pilot egos and cowboy attitude, and how the aviation industry was able to change that and reduce human errors. And how medicine should learn from them, and maybe already is.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/31/health/31safe.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_oXvXtQlBA

Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by 082349872349872 on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @04:56AM (#24339761)
For "urban cowboy" attitude, compare spurs in the cockpit: https://generalaviationnews.com/2020/03/18/questions-from-th...
Re:Why Doctors Hate Their Computers (2018) by ako on Tuesday September 01, 2020 @01:25AM (#24338821)
I wonder how doable it is to make medicine more like aviation?

Medicine is for a large part trial and error (try this medicine and come and in one week to see if it helped), under high time pressure (general practitioners in the netherlands have 10 minutes to see a patient, including reading up on previous visits, and following up with hospital research results, etc).

Even if you'd try to determine learnings from every error, and put these in protocols to instruct healthcare people to avoid same mistakes next time, would they be able to effectively use this knowledge within the 10 minutes allocated?