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Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by qzw on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:31PM (#24289615)
Definitely some extraodinary claims that will require extraordinary evidence to prove. Especially getting 20+ mpg for 4500 miles, while flying at 450mph, which is near the top end of what piston/propeller aircraft are capable of. For reference, the P51 (one of the fastest fighters of WWII) had a comparable top speed. The Piaggio Avanti [0] has a somewhat similar design and top speed (460 high speed cruise), but has twin turboprops and a far shorter range and far lower claimed mpg.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.180_Avanti

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by desdiv on Thursday August 27, 2020 @12:44AM (#24290192)
>Especially getting 20+ mpg for 4500 miles, while flying at 450mph

That's not what they're claiming though. They're claiming that:

1. 20+ mpg

2. maximum speed of 450 mph

3. range of 4500 miles

are possible individually, not that 1+2+3 are possible all at the same time.

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by qzw on Thursday August 27, 2020 @01:44AM (#24290492)
Sure, there are all kinds of trade offs between speed, range, useful load, altitude, burn rate, etc. But it’s really the combination of 450, 4500, and 20+ that would make this plane revolutionary. Otherwise it wouldn’t be all that interesting. And if we are to take seriously their claim of competing with commercial aviation, then it would really have to perform pretty close to all three of those numbers at the same time to even have a chance.

Edit: just to add a few numbers from the back of my napkin. To go 4500 miles, it would probably need to do 20mpg anyway. That’s 225 gallons of fuel. JetA is 6.7lb/gl, so ~1500lb. Not sure a small plane could carry a whole lot more than that without giving up all the useful load. And if it can only cruise at ~300mph in order to go 4500 miles, then we’re looking at a 15-hour flight in a pretty confined space with likely fairly basic amenities. It’s not exactly bringing back the glamour of aviation.

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by dzhiurgis on Thursday August 27, 2020 @08:40AM (#24293052)
I'd take any sleeping pod any time, even if I had to bring my own sandwiches, piss into a bottle and have 0 entertainment than sit for more than 8 hours in economy flight of any current airline.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by abrowne on Thursday August 27, 2020 @09:42AM (#24293584)
I'd similarly prefer a low-headroom bunk bed. I think the problem is bracing for take-off and landing and evacuations.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by justinclift on Thursday August 27, 2020 @03:41AM (#24291033)
Well, from London to New York is apparently about 3500 miles, and a 15 hour journey for that sounds reasonable.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by cerebellum42 on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:01AM (#24291509)
A single engine plane is most likely not going to be used for ocean crossings regularly, for safety reasons, even if it is technically capable of it. Additionally, I'm not sure it has enough spare fuel reserves to make the trip with enough margin for error or unforeseen circumstances.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by VBprogrammer on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:46AM (#24291807)
Single engine aircraft with a range of around 800 miles are regularly ferried across the Atlantic. Now, I'm not for a minute suggesting that this is an everyday pleasure flight, it's something which takes planning, preparation and additional equipment. However, all I'm pointing out is that range would be the least of your problems if any of the claims prove true.

If you are interested this site gives a good overview of the routes and the legs involved http://220kts.com/ferry-flights/atlantic-ferry-routes.html

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by SideburnsOfDoom on Thursday August 27, 2020 @07:56AM (#24292754)
Ferrying is not a paying passenger flight, correct?

How would single-engine craft comply with ETOPS - the relevant standard for passenger flights, or equivalent?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETOPS

https://aerosavvy.com/etops/

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by VBprogrammer on Thursday August 27, 2020 @10:16AM (#24293920)
The short answer is they don't and it's pointless to ask about it since these flights are conducted under part 91 for private aviation. There is almost no charter or scheduled flights allowed on single engine aircraft in Europe and the few that do exist are using single engine turbines on an exemption (the exemption is based on the fact turbines have a demonstrated order of magnitude better reliability).
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by NovemberWhiskey on Thursday August 27, 2020 @11:27AM (#24294611)
This has changed relatively recently (2017) in the EASA rules and single-engine IFR charter flying is possible without special exemptions as long as the engine has demonstrated good reliability (basically it means turbine engines).
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by SideburnsOfDoom on Thursday August 27, 2020 @10:47AM (#24294189)
> There is almost no charter or scheduled flights allowed on single engine aircraft in Europe

So, without new regulation, this aircraft will not carry out "charter or scheduled flights in Europe" ?

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by sunstone on Thursday August 27, 2020 @10:53AM (#24294259)
This airplane has a "2 in 1" engine. Two separate engines running on one physical engine block. So there is some engine redundancy.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by rhombocombus on Thursday August 27, 2020 @06:43PM (#24299500)
yes but that really only matters if the second "engine" produces enough power for maneuvering if the first one fails. Plus, there is still mechanical interconnectedness so it isn't truly redundant. That said it is likely far safer than a traditional twin, the axiom with those is if you lose one engine the second will fly you all the way to the scene of the crash.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by sunstone on Friday August 28, 2020 @01:43PM (#24307746)
There's a link to the motor manufacturer in the article (but it's down right now). As I recall the two motors are identical with no common parts other than the engine block.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by richthegeek on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:03AM (#24291518)
Especially if you're saving time at either end by skipping all the Heathrow delays (long security checks, baggage check, etc)
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by jokowueu on Thursday August 27, 2020 @08:22AM (#24292920)
People who fly privately don't need to go through any checks ?
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by devdas on Thursday August 27, 2020 @09:18AM (#24293370)
Not the ones protecting expensive commerical planes.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by jacquesm on Thursday August 27, 2020 @09:46AM (#24293610)
And here I was thinking it was to protect the passengers.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by DuskStar on Thursday August 27, 2020 @09:57AM (#24293735)
No need to protect the passengers if there aren't any other people on your flight!
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by TLightful on Thursday August 27, 2020 @06:41AM (#24292221)
Only if it has cryosleep chambers on-board.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by aidenn0 on Thursday August 27, 2020 @01:16AM (#24290352)
TFA did not say maximum speed 450mph, it said "maximum cruising speed of at least 450mph" Still doesn't mean it gets 18-25mpg at 450.

If it can realistically do half of 4500 miles at 450mph, there are a lot of interesting routes (Gets you as far as Tel-Aviv from London, Boston to Phoenix, or Los Angeles to Miami).

Using that completely-pulled-out-of-my-ass number of half the range at 450, and assuming quadratic drag, the full range would be at about 300mph, so a roughly 12 hour flight from New York to London at a cost of $5k.

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by qzw on Thursday August 27, 2020 @01:55AM (#24290539)
$5k plus pilots (I’d want two for a transatlantic flight). And you’d still be stuck inside a very small space for 12 hours, with what’s likely to be a porta-potty level lavatory and minimalist galley. Oh, and a single piston engine, which is less reliable than turbines, over a lot of very cold water. Not sure that would be the best use case for this plane.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by dzhiurgis on Thursday August 27, 2020 @08:43AM (#24293069)
Plus airports, airspace, immigration, depreciation, insurance. So more like 20k.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by aidenn0 on Thursday August 27, 2020 @12:05PM (#24295033)
12 hours transatlantic is probably worse than coach (or premium coach at least) transatlantic in 7 hours for most cases.

With these specs (which are completely fictional at this point), it's the size and cost of a light-jet with the speed and range of a mid-sized jet, which is a under-served niche with the increasing numbers of people in the "very wealthy, but not quite embarassingly wealthy"

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by anovikov on Thursday August 27, 2020 @02:37AM (#24290710)
Well, the size of aircraft certainly allows for fully enclosed, proper lavatory. CJ3 used for size comparison, has one.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by nradov on Thursday August 27, 2020 @12:42PM (#24295507)
The single engine is a concern.

Something like Garmin Autonomí might eventually allow for single pilot flights while maintaining a reasonable level of safety.

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/autonomi/

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by kristopolous on Thursday August 27, 2020 @06:59AM (#24292349)
Everything deserves to have a Version 1.0

I have high hopes for the future efforts

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by Retric on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:45PM (#24289939)
The Piaggio II (https://www.aircraftcompare.com/aircraft/piaggio-p180-avanti...) is missing several modern aerodynamic and efficiency features like winglets and gets 15MPG and has a 1600 Mile range. Significantly beating it’s fuel efficiency at similar speeds seems reasonable just eyeballing the two designs. Getting the full 20MPG at 450MPH might be a stretch, but it’s not all that unreasonable.

Also, higher aerodynamic efficiency means lower HP requirements. Moving that weight savings to fuel can boost range even further.

PS: Winglets are actually really old technology. It’s making the trade offs worth it including significantly increased weight at the wing tip that’s new.

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by brunooo on Thursday August 27, 2020 @12:47AM (#24290206)
I’m not sure those mpg numbers are correct: the more fuel efficient Piaggio EVO update, with winglets etc, in the extended range version can hold about 450 gallons of Jet A and has a 1770nm range, so even with plenty of reserves that doesn’t get it anywhere above half of 15mpg (from what I can find IFR reserve comes out to 75 gallons, thus 4.72mpg nautical or 5.4 statute).

Which is why the jump in efficiency would be so extraordinary.

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by sunstone on Thursday August 27, 2020 @02:53AM (#24290784)
I recall from the last time this plane hit the news cycle that it is designed to cruise at 60,000 feet where air density is lower and better fuel efficiency can be had.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by VBprogrammer on Thursday August 27, 2020 @06:25AM (#24292101)
To put that claim into context the manned single engine piston height record is held by a specially modified Rutan Long Ez and was around 35,000ft.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by mediaman on Thursday August 27, 2020 @11:17AM (#24294503)
Prop planes don’t work well at higher elevation. There’s nothing for the prop to work against. It’s why jet engines, with their compression, work better.

Props work better than jets at low elevation where the span of a propeller can work against a lot of high density air.

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by snovv_crash on Thursday August 27, 2020 @01:17AM (#24290358)
Turboprops are less fuel efficient, they just have a higher power to weight ratio than piston engines.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by nl on Thursday August 27, 2020 @12:00AM (#24289996)
Much of the improved efficiency comes from the engine[1], which claims "50% lower fuel burn compared to turbine engines in the same power category".

The engine company is German and so we can make lots of jokes about German companies' fuel efficiency claims I guess.

Nevertheless, it has been around since 2012 and is used in a few planes already, so presumably there is some measurable improvement there or they'd have taken the claim down by now?

For comparison, this engine has a Specific fuel consumption of 210 g/kW/h, while a P&W PT6A-6 (older, slightly more powerful: 431 kW vs 368kW) has 0.408 kg/kW/hr[2]

[1] https://red-aircraft.com/?lang=en

[2] http://www.all-aero.com/index.php/contactus/64-engines-power...

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by scarier on Thursday August 27, 2020 @12:30AM (#24290121)
Still, a plane with half the aerodynamic drag and twice the BSFC is only getting 4x the fuel efficiency, not the ~10x they're claiming. Even if they're making a bit of "free" thrust from their cooling system (which has been a thing since WWII), I don't see what accounts for the rest, even ignoring that the Celera likely has a significant increase in frontal area due to the standing-height cabin.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by brunooo on Thursday August 27, 2020 @01:09AM (#24290314)
Re “free thrust/WWII”: Real Engineering recently did a great summary of the P47 Thunderbolt intercooler and general craziness of the engine at https://youtu.be/IwqTN5fhMR8
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by nl on Thursday August 27, 2020 @02:41AM (#24290725)
They are claiming slightly under 10x fuel efficiency compared to a jet (2-3 mpg vs 18-25 mpg).

That doesn't seem completely unreasonable.

A Pilatus PC-12 (which is the turoprop competition here) NXG gets around 4.3 mpg.

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by sgt101 on Thursday August 27, 2020 @06:40AM (#24292215)
I think that the evidence can be really simple (not extraordinary) - just gas it up, fly it for 4500miles in about 11hrs.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by aliswe on Saturday August 29, 2020 @01:05PM (#24317556)
Just a nitpick, extraordinary claims normally do not require extraordinary evidence. For example, to gather evidence that, for example, there is a man who could run for 50mph in short bursts, it would require nothing but ordinary evidence. Have a nice day!
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by VBprogrammer on Thursday August 27, 2020 @06:04AM (#24291955)
I'm calling bullshit. Compare it to the TBM900 which has a 900hp turbine engine and vastly similar layout. There is no way they can go 60 knots faster on 300 less horse power.

And even if they somehow pull off that trick, that short skinny wing will make the MU-2 feel like a safe family minivan.

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by jillesvangurp on Friday August 28, 2020 @04:28AM (#24302599)
If they reduce drag, which is exactly what they are claiming to have achieved, that would reduce the amount of horse power needed to overcome that drag. Less HP translates into better fuel economy.

Basically this plane has the engine mounted on the back, which means center of gravity and wing position are quite a bit different. The nose cone looks very streamlined and crucially the wings are in front of the vortex produced by the prop. I'm guessing that that adds up to a bit of reduction in drag. The reason many planes have the engines mounted on the other side probably have to do with things like cooling, engine size, and other practical concerns.

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by VBprogrammer on Friday August 28, 2020 @05:29AM (#24302988)
They are claiming improvements across almost all areas. If it flew as fast and as far as the competition on 50% less fuel, that would be amazing. If it flew 60 knots faster in the same fuel and payload, awesome!

However, they are claiming improvements across the board. 3x the range, significantly faster, flies higher, uses less fuel. It doesn't pass a sniff test.

Compare it to the Grob Strato 2c. Notice how long the wings are by comparison? This is a feature of nearly all subsonic high altitude aircraft. Also notice the how long the props are on the Grob, another feature of high altitude aircraft conspicuously missing on this aircraft.

Pusher aircraft are not new. In fact they are as old as powered aviation itself. They generally aren't significantly more efficient.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grob_Strato_2C

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by asdfadsfgfdda on Thursday August 27, 2020 @12:04PM (#24295016)
The layout/payload may be similar to a TBM, but I'm guessing the wing loading and cruise altitude will be higher. So it's definitely feasible to go faster on less power.
Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by VBprogrammer on Thursday August 27, 2020 @12:37PM (#24295438)
Aerodynamic drag is a square relation so the difference in drag there is about 40%. With 65% of the power.

I think occam's razor applies here. Either the aerodynamics of reasonably modern aircraft designs leave a huge amount on the table or this startup is telling fibs.

There are other reasons to be suspicious, modern diesel engines rely on a large amount of turbo charging to achieve sea level rated power, it's difficult to believe they are able to maintain this rated power to 50,000ft or 60,000ft. (In the case of the TBM the engine is actually capable of about 1300hp at sea level but is "flat rated" to what it can maintain at altitude).

Finally, almost all high altitude aircraft have long wings (think the U2 as that is not far from what we are talking about here). Adding longer wings typically increases high altitude performance (there are aircraft with model variants where the wings got longer, like the twin commander). This aircraft appears to have borrowed a couple of surfboards.

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by Tuna-Fish on Friday August 28, 2020 @04:14AM (#24302531)
> I think occam's razor applies here. Either the aerodynamics of reasonably modern aircraft designs leave a huge amount on the table or this startup is telling fibs.

Aerodynamics of reasonably modern aircraft designs do leave a huge amount on the table. Generally for good reasons, though. The 500L is clearly almost entirely a laminar-flow design, unlike conventional aircraft (including the one you linked). Experience from gliders have shown that a small laminar flow design like this can have less than a third of the drag of what a conventionally shaped design of roughly similar size.

There are two major downsides to designing like this:

Firstly, the shape is entirely determined by physics, leaving very little wiggle room for manufacturing or practical concerns. Without modern composites, cost-effectively manufacturing the frame is impractical.

Secondly, the great drag properties are very dependent on the properties of the skin of the aircraft. Laminar-flow gliders can have their glide ratios halved after accumulating a few too many insects on the leading edge. If you want to fly very high, (as this plane seems to want to), better hope you have an amazing de-icing system, or even a very small amount of ice will trash your aerodynamics.

Re:The potentially revolutionary Celera 500L aircraft by VBprogrammer on Friday August 28, 2020 @04:39AM (#24302666)
Don't forget low speed handling and stall characteristics.

There are so many places where the practically of this aircraft would fall down. Good luck fitting deicing boots to a wing which needs to be kept so clean polishing it makes a difference.

Also, good luck trying to get an clearence to climb to 60,000ft around any busy international airspace. Regardless of any aerodynamics miracles this aircraft pulls off I'm sure we agree that it's climb performance will be distinctly average. That means it's going to take well over an hour to get up there. 20 mins or more could be spent in the RVSM band (FL280+) where most of the airliners are, expect to be vectored all over the sky while this happens. This is already a problem in something like the CJ2 which like to cruise higher than the airliners but aren't quite as fast. It's climb performance is considerably better than you would expect from this aircraft.