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Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by taneq on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:04PM (#24289148)
So to sum that up, Johnny Won't Upgrade because like as not, the writers of the updates are The Enemy.
Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by Iolaum on Thursday August 27, 2020 @01:14AM (#24290334)
That's why its best to find free software solutions for your computing needs where possible. The options a user has on free software solutions discourage that behaviour.
Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by billpg on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:10AM (#24291558)
Free software has the same problem. I know people who have switched off Firefox updates because an update changed something in a way they didn't like.

In order to fix their issue with the new version, they worked out how to roll-back by one version and disable future updates.

Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by jacobwilliamroy on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:30PM (#24289294)
That is the modern tech business model. Rope in naive people with excellent services offered at a loss or at cost, wait for them to develop dependence, use nazi cult-think psychology to inculcate irrational loyalty to the platform, then take everything away in a major software update and sell it back to the poor fools for big profits.
Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by zxcmx on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @10:25PM (#24289576)
It's possible for developers to think they are shipping must-have features _and_ for users to see that as "messing up all my menus" and "disrupting my workflow".

Inevitably some users will complain about changes in every new update while others complain about a lack of eagerly awaited new features and bug fixes. You cannot make everyone happy :/

I'm sympathetic to the idea that workflow/ui changes should be explicit updates (or on beta opt-ins) with security/crash fixes being automatic. This model makes the most sense for professional tools that people make a living from (e.g. CAD). To be sustainable, software with multiple supported major versions will cost more.

Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by grugagag on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:14PM (#24289808)
Don't force updates on people. For the ones who want to update asap they should be able to do so. I prefer to make sure a major update is not going to fuck my system then I will update as well, it's happened to me before multiple times and I am forever hesitant about this. It's also happened to me to get featured removed when updating so if something is working allright I will hesitate updating for a while.
Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by zxcmx on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:48PM (#24289951)
Context matters. So 3d sculpting software or CAD do not deeply need automatic updates, although it can greatly reduce support requests (e.g. something in the OS changed, software is now crashing, need to install update).

The state of play in 2020 however is that operating systems and browsers 100% need automatic updates for security issues. The reason we have them is because of all the bad things that happened when we didn't.

There should then be a very small switch hidden somewhere deep in the system where people like you who know what they are doing can turn them off. For the people who are using the software to say, run the electrical grid and a) care more about stability than security and b) pay people to write scathing reports about all the patches they're not installing.

IMHO there is a sticky middle ground with respect to office suites and email clients where the software is widespread enough that bugs are wormable.

Updates as a whole are inter-twingled with the developer's support and release model, how they a/b test and general maturity in terms of managing change. I feel like we're often complaining about different aspects of this when we talk about "updates".

Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by unionpivo on Thursday August 27, 2020 @04:14AM (#24291225)
I have been in IT for over 20 years now.

I have had orders of magnitude more problem with updates than with malware/viruses/hackers.

The thing is with malware/viruses/hackers sooner or later something will get through any defences, so you need robust recovery system anyway.

And most updates that brake systems are not even security updates. I wouldn't mind automated security updates, but many many many maybe most vendors pile whatever happens to compile to their updates so that they customers can test it for them.

Firefox on mobile just fucked us in the ass (extension we developed for client doesn't work anymore and we can't fix it. And since we have support contract we will probably have to eat the cost of whatever alternative we have to build.).

Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by burntoutfire on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:59AM (#24291916)
> I have had orders of magnitude more problem with updates than with malware/viruses/hackers.

Maybe that's precisely because the updates are preventing you from being owned?

Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by wolco on Thursday August 27, 2020 @08:20AM (#24292903)
The % of security fixes vs speed ui improvements is 100 to 1. Very rarely do we get issues that require forced updates that a once a year limit on these types of updates would be ideal.
Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by scarface74 on Thursday August 27, 2020 @09:49AM (#24293639)
I have been in IT for over 20 years now. I have had orders of magnitude more problem with updates than with malware/viruses/hackers.

Until you get hit by this....

https://www.giac.org/paper/gcih/201/microsoft-iis-superfluou...

It was the first widespread IIS vulnerability that almost hit me. The tl;dr version: All you had to do was encode a shell command in the url bar if the site was running IIS and it would execute it on the server.

Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by unionpivo on Thursday August 27, 2020 @10:50AM (#24294223)
Oh we(organizations I have worked for) have been hit several times (not IIS, but once it was several wordpress sites we used, once it was outlook, once we never figured out - probably inside job, ... ). But that was 3, 4 times in 20 years.

Updates its 3,4 times per year. Like I said order of magnitude difference

Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by arexxbifs on Thursday August 27, 2020 @04:01AM (#24291150)
The article specifically states

> should be incremental and security or bug fixes only

There's a big difference between that and, for example, constantly pushing UI changes that nobody asked for and for no other reason than that some designer somewhere decided that "A/B testing" would look good on their resumé.

Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by wyclif on Thursday August 27, 2020 @03:03AM (#24290821)
CAD software like AutoCAD or Microstation is the worst for this. Before I was a developer, I was a land surveyor, and I used to have so many updates bite me in the ass in exactly the way the author describes. Honestly, open source has made things a lot better since I don't have to deal with enterprise type shrink-wrapped software anymore.
Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by Akronymus on Thursday August 27, 2020 @05:22AM (#24291641)
I literally only update apps on my phone when the old version becomes unusable [1] or when the new version actually provides something of worth.

For desktop software, most seem to, sadly, be self updating or a website.

For example, youtube now has a miniplayer when playing a playlist on desktop. I find that "feature" to be absolutely atrocious and would rather do without it. But due to it being a website they changed it to make it impossible to turn it off.

[1] Whatsapp

Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by de_watcher on Thursday August 27, 2020 @09:56AM (#24293729)
Btw, desktop youtube redesign is atrocious: it's slow and wastes a lot of screen space. People have to work on browser plugins that use hacks to redirect to the old page. The old design page is thankfully still served, but it can't be accessed without magic and constant breakage.
Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by Akronymus on Thursday August 27, 2020 @10:05AM (#24293814)
Also: reddit redesign is godawful. I HATE that designers think that unifying the look and feel of a website for desktop(horizontal screen) and phones (vertical acreen) is a good idea. For example: twitter has practically no difference between mobile and desktop view. And it wastes so much screenspace.

Altough, the reddit redesign sucks on mobile too.

Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by krageon on Thursday August 27, 2020 @07:50AM (#24292708)
I do the same thing and I get an unbelievable amount of salt about it from my colleagues (most of them programmers), even though they have the same issues I do and complain about the same things. It's just not understandable at all.
Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by hutzlibu on Thursday August 27, 2020 @08:44AM (#24293081)
Updates are really important in terms of security.

The problem here is the hostile relationship from the companies to their customers.

Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by Akronymus on Thursday August 27, 2020 @09:27AM (#24293449)
Most updates seem to eschew security in favor of new "features" or "improvements".

And even if they say security they usually bundle it with other changes, along with not even saying what kind of security change.

Give me a vulnerability tracker and what has been fixed, and I'll actually update your app.

For me, the "added security" is just not worth it MOST of the time. Partially due to actually only installing apps that don't even have the capability to do much/any damage, due to it only having permission to access parts I don't deem dangerous.

Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by ryandrake on Thursday August 27, 2020 @11:59AM (#24294964)
I would buy the "updates are important because security" line of reasoning if software developers would bother to release security-only patches to old software, but most don't. Unfortunately, you need to take the bad (UI re-designs, unwanted features, changed file formats) with the good (securest fixes), so I unfortunately often decide to keep the old, slightly more vulnerable software.
Re:Why Johnny Won't Upgrade by krageon on Friday August 28, 2020 @09:17AM (#24304451)
> Updates are really important in terms of security.

We're talking about phone apps. 99% of the time this just isn't the case and the remaining 1% is for issues so widely broadcast you would absolutely know.