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Re:Rethinking the App Store by simonh on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:51AM (#24283569)
So now the US government and the EU will be making legislation that specifies phone APIs and designs user interfaces. Great!

Not going to happen. Apple will simple close up the App Store into a private premium feature delivery system. Meanwhile the entire rest of the industry will be stuck with a new version of WAP. Thanks guys.

Re:Rethinking the App Store by jakelazaroff on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:24PM (#24283997)
> So now the US government and the EU will be making legislation that specifies phone APIs and designs user interfaces. Great!

This, but unironically.

It's not hard to think of an example where "legislation that specifies APIs and designs user interfaces" is unambiguously good — say, accessibility requirements for commercial software.

Re:Rethinking the App Store by auggierose on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:33PM (#24284096)
I think that's pretty bad. A development shop shouldn't be forced to follow all sorts of accessibility requirements.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by the_other on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:56PM (#24285171)
As a disabled person, I’m forced to disagree. Most disability is social: activities are hard to perform not due to physical limitation (although this has some effect), but because social constructs and practices obstruct access.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by auggierose on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:50PM (#24285849)
It depends on the kind of software. Should games be required to be accessible? I don't think so. Should banking apps be required to be accessible? That probably depends on the size of the bank. Should software used for accessing government services be accessible? Of course.

I don't think a law forcing all software to be accessible makes any kind of sense.

Re:Rethinking the App Store by the_other on Thursday August 27, 2020 @03:37AM (#24291011)
At a personal level, I’m fine with individual pieces of software being accessible or not. It’s the same with individual pieces of art, buildings and so on. I’m into music enough that I DJ and play in bands; my partner is deaf and prefers subtitled films; no big deal.

But when you pull your focus a bit further back to look at society, Infrastructure, systems and practices, it’s easy to see that disabled people are both more vulnerable and also less well supported (and often actively discriminated against).

The laws we have give disabled people some leverage to redress that imbalance. Unfortunately, the perspective that “accessibility is an expensive addition” is so pervasive (or not even considered), that disabled people need those laws.

A problem with laws is they reinforce binary thinking. As written they tend towards flexibility, but at the point of enforcement, there’s usually a hard line between punishment and not, which amplifies that binary impression. A less binary outlook would see people and companies embracing the opportunities for collaboration and creativity. For example, a big games publisher could actively seek out and promote developers who specialise in accessible games, or games that play with creative devices beyond the vision-first norm. A few examples exist but they’re rare, independent and it’s not a category you can search for. The same goes for art, galleries, cinema. London, where I live, had an improving state of live subtitled theatre, but it’s still only one performance in 50 or 100, for the big shows. It’s probably only even this good because of the law.

Re:Rethinking the App Store by jakelazaroff on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:20PM (#24286197)
No one is asking for a law forcing all software to be accessible — just commercial and public (in the “government operated” sense) software. A bank’s size should not determine whether or not they have to support e.g. blind customers.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by auggierose on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @04:35PM (#24286967)
All software that's sold is commercial. So that means all software except software no-one pays for anyway.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by jakelazaroff on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @06:37PM (#24288102)
Of which there is far more than commercial software, especially if you count e.g. websites.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by romanoderoma on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:21PM (#24286203)
> I don't think a law forcing all software to be accessible makes any kind of sense.

Easy to say when you don't have disabilities

Now imagine that the only content you can consume are government's websites to pay taxes...

Re:Rethinking the App Store by auggierose on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @04:37PM (#24286994)
Now imagine the only software you are allowed to write is the one that can meet all accessibility requirements.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by romanoderoma on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @06:30PM (#24288054)
That should be the norm if you care about it...

It's like saying that if you work in constructions you shouldn't care about accessibility unless you work on government's buildings

But people with disabilities go to cinemas, pubs, bars, restaurants, museums, stadiums, ballrooms etc. etc.

I honestly don't see your point

Re:Rethinking the App Store by auggierose on Saturday September 05, 2020 @01:06PM (#24385091)
I guess we have to disagree here. Software is much more flexible than a building. People have been trying to draw these construction work - software analogies forever now, and it is just bullocks. Making a building is a solved problem. Most interesting software isn't a solved problem, otherwise you wouldn't need that software in the first place. Now is it for Microsoft a good idea to make their Office software accessible? For sure. Is it for me a good idea to make the software I write accessible? What does that even mean in the various contexts? It's not like you add an elevator and an extra bathroom and you are good. Will I be getting paid for the huge amount of extra work I need to do to produce something that's truly accessible and not just a lip service?
Re:Rethinking the App Store by simonh on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:07PM (#24284526)
Accessibility UIs that are designed by committee and set in stone. No innovation allowed, by law. Gah, ironically Apple's platforms have the best accessibility in the industry regardless of legislation. They pretty much always have.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by the_other on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:57PM (#24285188)
Disability legislation doesn’t design solutions: it provides requirements which are inputs into your design process. The solutions are up to you.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by simonh on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:35PM (#24285682)
I was replying to a post explicitly suggesting that the APIs and UI for accessibility should be standardised. In that context I think trying to refute, er, the suggestion actualy being made, is reasonable.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by jakelazaroff on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:16PM (#24286147)
I’m not suggesting that — I thought you were speaking metaphorically. If a court mandates that Apple allow sideloaded apps or third-party app stores, it will obviously take the same form as accessibility requirements, not specific APIs or UI designs.
Re:Rethinking the App Store by LamaOfRuin on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:15PM (#24284612)
Like they closed up shop and abandoned China as a market?
Re:Rethinking the App Store by ardy42 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @12:02PM (#24283729)
> So now the US government and the EU will be making legislation that specifies phone APIs and designs user interfaces. Great!

They already do. For instance Microsoft was forced to create BrowserChoice.eu because of an antitrust case. GDPR puts requirements on user interfaces for personal data collection. I'm not aware of similar US examples (except maybe the aforementioned COPPA), but I know US law specifies form designs and font types/sizes for certain content (IIRC, to combat hiding disclosures in illegible type, etc).

This kind of thing typically only happens when private self-interest gets in the way of the public good, which is arguably the case with some of Apple's App Store decisions.

> Not going to happen. Apple will simple close up the App Store into a private premium feature delivery system. Meanwhile the entire rest of the industry will be stuck with a new version of WAP.

Are you serious? Apple's going to comply with whatever regulations they need to, because having an app store is too lucrative for them. They're not going to cut their nose to spite their face.

Re:Rethinking the App Store by simonh on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @01:01PM (#24284440)
Those are incredibly minimal requirements, basically equivalent to labelling restrictions on food. They're nothing like specifying a detailed spec for application delivery, permissioning, resource access, background update orchestration, UI design for installers and update management etc, etc. And yes this would have to be mandated, otherwise it would leave gaps for vendor implementation abuse. Remember Apple doesn't want to do this at all.

On your last point, not if you take away the two primary pillars of it's profitability - exclusive payments processing and store exclusivity. Revenues would collapse, which after all is the point of doing all of this, and they'd lose control of the platform. Why not simply close open access to the store and explicitly license every app. They could just do a deal with a dozen software vendors to develop the couple of hundred core apps and games they need, and to do bespoke development for other clients. No public signups as iOS developers.

Re:Rethinking the App Store by ardy42 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:27PM (#24285586)
> Those are incredibly minimal requirements, basically equivalent to labelling restrictions on food. They're nothing like specifying a detailed spec for application delivery, permissioning, resource access, background update orchestration, UI design for installers and update management etc, etc. And yes this would have to be mandated, otherwise it would leave gaps for vendor implementation abuse. Remember Apple doesn't want to do this at all.

You're moving the goalposts, you originally said:

>>>>> The problem with this is that it would be putting an obligation on Apple to design and implement APIs it doesn't want to create or support, and implement features it disagrees with.

The way this usually works is that the regulators/legislators would come up with relatively high level requirements [1] and Apple would have to figure out the design details to meet them. If their detailed design fails to meet or subverts the high level requirements, then they will be forced to defend their actions in court, where "we don't want to do it" isn't a defense.

[1] Which hypothetically could be as simple as 1) users must have the option to install 3rd party app stores on their devices, 2) 3rd party app stores may not be technically disadvantaged compared to the 1st party store, and 3) maybe some requirements around revenue or cost sharing.

> On your last point, not if you take away the two primary pillars of it's profitability - exclusive payments processing and store exclusivity. Revenues would collapse, which after all is the point of doing all of this, and they'd lose control of the platform.

Explain to me why Apple hasn't abandoned the Mac OS platform for those same reasons, since it doesn't have the "exclusive payments processing and store exclusivity" that you seem to think are so essential.