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Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by hu3 on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @04:31PM (#24275765)
I often see citations of Bill Gates charity being downvoted to oblivion on HN and I can never figure out why.

Would appreciate if someone could enlighten me. Surely there must be a good reason.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by woodruffw on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @04:46PM (#24275899)
I didn't downvote this (and don't generally do so), but here's a line of reasoning that might explain it: something has to go seriously wrong in the world for the lives of millions of people to be contingent upon the charitable sentiments of one obscenely wealthy man. Put another way: regardless of whether he's doing good, it shouldn't be the case that polio eradication depends on his material wealth.

Celebrating the beneficial outcomes of Bill Gates' charity without reflecting on why he's able to give away billions of dollars without breaking a sweat invites us to ignore the fact that the system that enriched Bill Gates doesn't actually encourage him to do any good (and actually involved him doing quite a lot of harm).

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by rowanG077 on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @05:19PM (#24276258)
I have the opposite sentiment. Things have been going extremely right for a single person to be able to go out and destroy issues that literately thousands upon thousands of people are affected by. Since governments of the developed world are mostly democratic no action to fix those issues in other countries is taken. This would have not otherwise been possible.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by woodruffw on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @07:02PM (#24277274)
To be clear: it is good, morally speaking, for Bill Gates to contribute to the effort to eliminate polio. The observation is that Gates' ability to do so (i.e., his profound wealth) is completely unfixed to any good he produces: he could just as easily use his wealth for morally bad ends.

In others words, we're extraordinarily lucky that this particular ultra-wealthy person has decided to do good things with (some) of their money. But grounding moral and humanitarian progress on a steady stream of luck seems shortsighted.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by rowanG077 on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @07:30PM (#24277481)
I don't think it's luck. A significant part of the very rich are donating huge amounts to charity. With the giving pledge being the most clear example.

It's most certainly not a fluke that the mega rich are solving problem governments can't or won't.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by woodruffw on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @09:11PM (#24278043)
> It's most certainly not a fluke that the mega rich are solving problem governments can't or won't.

There is no "can't or won't" on a global scale: some countries have, others haven't as a function of their means. The fact that ultra wealthy individuals have better means than entire countries is an indictment of the state of affairs, not praise.

Edit: To elaborate on the above: eradicating polio isn't something that democratic, liberal countries are uniquely good at. Autocratic and despotic governments have also historically been good at it and have aggressively pursued it, because paralyzed citizens just aren't very useful. Countries that don't pursue eradication are historically ones that just lack the means (whether that's money, or infrastructure, or whatever), not ones with specific political structures.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by rowanG077 on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:48PM (#24286482)
> There is no "can't or won't" on a global scale: some countries have, others haven't as a function of their means.

That is exactly "can't or won't". The USA or China certainly "can" fix these issues in Africa if they want to but they "won't". But the African countries themselves obviously don't have this capability thus they "can't" fix it.

> The fact that ultra wealthy individuals have better means than entire countries is an indictment of the state of affairs, not praise.

Why is this an indictment. This is not self evident at all to me. The opposite is true from my perspective. This story and initiatives like the giving pledge very clearly show me that that the mega rich are doing things no country is doing. And thus these problem would remain unsolved if they would not be here.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by dbmikus on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @11:55PM (#24278952)
Charities like the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation tend to be one of the charities that critics of rich philanthrophy actually exclude. The common argument is that such philanthropic endeavors should not be at the whims of the rich, but should rather be run by the government and the rich should be more greatly taxed by the government to secure those funds.

However, The Gates Foundation tends to fund programs in developing countries where those countries's governments are not capable of funding it themselves.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by zaphar on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @08:37AM (#24281824)
It helps that the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation has a hyper focus on outcomes and a track record of delivering. It's an example of what is possible to accomplish when philanthropy is done well.

While I can understand and in some sense agree that it's unfortunate our current best solution to tackling some of these problems is for someone with a lot of resources and no bureaucratic entanglements to focus on solving the problem once and for all. I can also recognize that few governments are capable of solving it regardless of political philosophy.

I'm more than happy to celebrate a solution that works today over a hypothetical solution that hasn't been successfully deployed yet. Maybe I'm too pragmatic.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by Cthulhu_ on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @03:34AM (#24280074)
I hear what you're saying, but, who or what organization would else would do it? Individual countries struggle with it because, amongst other reasons, they're not as wealthy or stable as the US and Europe was when they beat (in this case) polio; they struggle to stay afloat, and they have bigger concerns for their people, base necessities like water, food and housing.

The UN? They (to me / personal viewpoint / citation needed) don't seem to have any power, influence, means or goodwill to handle a problem like this. I mean they have never been as silent as they are now, while China and the US have literal concentration camps, Russia is assassinating political opponents and is encroaching on other countries - directly (Ukraine) or indirectly (influencing governments, heavily influencing destabilizing decisions like Trump's election or Brexit), the US is in a civil war and on a crash course towards a fascist dictatorship, currently working towards a sham election, actively undermining postal services so mail voting will not work so that Trump can go "Well shit is fucked, I'll just stay on a bit longer to fix this for you" and declare national martial law so that the army can beat down whoever objects.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by hnick on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @09:47PM (#24278228)
AKA don't have the player, hate the game.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by abraae on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @05:45PM (#24276536)
Bill gates did indeed do "quite a lot of harm" to many businesses and I have cursed his name many times while wrestling with some Microsoft chicanery.

But that harm was done to competitors, on the business field. The people who became collateral damage could always go and get jobs at some other company. The companies suffered and sometimes died but such is the way of capitalism.

If the upside was that his money gets redistributed to the genuinely poor and needy, who don't have any opportunity to earn for themselves in some cushy IT job, then I'm personally OK with it.

(I forget the specifics, but a piece of ancient code we wrote included a dummy assignment to a variable called BILLGATESBOLLOCKS, to get around some MS devilment).

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by pm90 on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @06:04PM (#24276737)
It’s good that he’s a billionaire that uses his wealth for truly great humanitarian causes. However, he is an exception and most billionaires don’t do this. And they probably shouldn’t have to, if we created a system that doesn’t allow for this kind of obscene enrichment of individuals.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by renata on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @08:28PM (#24277828)
Personally I trust Bill Gates to do more good with his money than the US Government. Eradicating polio in other countries seems very much preferable to bombing them into democracy.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by pm90 on Thursday August 27, 2020 @06:10AM (#24292001)
That’s a false dichotomy. The WHO and other International aid organizations were founded and funded at the direction of the USG. The US continues to fund humanitarian causes around the globe. Gates himself has said that Government funding is essential to the causes he’s interested in.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by CWuestefeld on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:02PM (#24285252)
he is an exception and most billionaires don’t do this.

Citation required.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by pm90 on Thursday August 27, 2020 @06:06AM (#24291973)
No.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by petra on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @05:29PM (#24276369)
Given the incentives, isn't this a Robin Hood story ? Bill Gates, Robbing the rich to give to the poor ?

But the problem is that we are those rich people. We as tech people have suffered under the microsoft monopoly. Heck, we still suffer, from the horrors of windows 10, to browser incompatibilities, etc.

So we hate Microsoft. So it's hard to love Bill.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by vlunkr on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @05:45PM (#24276534)
Never has the phrase "first-world problems" been so applicable.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by belval on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @10:32PM (#24278500)
How could these Africans ever comprehend the pure dread of being forced to develop for IE6? /s

So what if he did "terrible" stuff 25+ years ago? I am sure no-one in this thread would give 90%+ of their personal wealth to humanitarian work such as these. People just like to complain.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by thinkloop on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:26AM (#24279741)
Please, 90% of a 100 billion (that is currently growing faster than he can spend it) is not a fair comparison. Money is worthless once you've bought everything you want.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by james_s_tayler on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @05:11AM (#24280620)
>Money is worthless once you've bought everything you want.

Not true, for what some people want is power and they continuously dish out money to get it.

It's often used as a vector to create a lot of the world's problems. I'm pretty happy to see it used the other way. A win is a win.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by belval on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:53AM (#24283611)
I understand where you are coming from, but he could have some stupid mega-doomsday-underwater-mansion project for the ultra-rich, instead he's doing this, why not appreciate it?
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by thinkloop on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:29PM (#24285614)
100%, just criticizing parent about how you and I not donating 90% of our wealth is different
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by alexilliamson on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @11:15PM (#24278731)
I would
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by koonsolo on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @05:51PM (#24276596)
It has everything to do with people's perspective of the world: rich people cannot be good people. If you gain something, somebody else needs to lose something. So for a rich person to get rich, he must have taken a lot from other, "nicer" people.

Bill gates must really love swimming "uncle scrooge"-style in his billions. That's all he cares about. Everything he does must be to gain more billions, so he can swim in a bigger pool.

Bill was also super competitive, so let's focus on that and forget that he made his money providing value to users and businesses. It's better to act like he stole the money in an unfair way.

I personally feel very sad for a person that can't imagine that someone else could feel happy and satisfied by helping others, by having a huge impact on peoples lives in a positive way. I'm sure Bill and Melinda get more satisfaction of helping other people than looking at numbers on their bank account. But hey, that's not possible because he's rich, and therefore evil.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by hu3 on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @07:29PM (#24277477)
That makes sense. It's specially telling that the top voted reply to my message says Bill Gates donated Billions "without breaking a sweet". Clearly that person never read about his personal involvement and time commitment to numerous researches and social programs. It's 100% prejudice.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by phenkdo on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @09:51AM (#24282431)
Thanks for sharing this viewpoint. This is the cancel culture run amok. While these people might very well be well-meaning, their ideological purity tests often end up being just sanctimonious holier-than-thou rants and tantrums.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by phenkdo on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @05:07PM (#24276117)
It is at its core, the issue of the perfect being the enemy of the good. Bill might be an imperfect angel, but he is an angel nonetheless in spending his fortune to help millions/billions out of abject poverty and suffering. That dwarfs almost any effort by other people.

You could psychoanalyze this as acts of redemption, guilty conscience, seeking further world domination or whatnot, However it's undeniable he's helped many, many people and far, far,far more than his keyboard detractors ever would or could. And that's a very good thing IMHO.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by _jal on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @05:57PM (#24276661)
People dislike him for a number of reasons. I despised his actions through most of his tenure at M$. He destroyed some things I cared about and tried hard to destroy others, and I was nowhere near them and didn't use their products.

I'm not really big on the idea of 'redemption' - my actions today do not erase what I've done in the past. But he has lived a pretty decent life since then, and tried to do good things. So good on him.

Others hold grudges longer.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by dylz on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @04:46PM (#24275896)
My assumption is that there are people that dislike how Gates earned his money.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by koonsolo on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @02:33AM (#24279776)
By running a successful business? Some people really need to get a proper perspective on this. Did he bribe people? Did he extort people?

Yeah, he was running a competitive business where he took advantage of his market position... just like any other business.

But oh, "I love my iPhone, and Steve Jobs is therefore my hero. So Apple is good because it loves it's customers".

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by dtheodor on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @04:42AM (#24280456)
He bribed people for sure. Microsoft products had completely overtaken the public sector IT of several countries back in the 90s/00s. To get into the public sector of several third-world and not so third-world countries, bribing is more or less mandatory, business as usual. We've seen scandals like these dozens of times with all kinds of big companies. Bribing to get big public infrastructure projects from companies like Siemens, bribing to get pharma machinery into public hospitals. No such scandal was ever published for Microsoft that I know of, but this is how things work.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by spacephysics on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @04:56PM (#24276005)
Without disclosing my opinions/take on Bill Gates, I think some see his charity as a means to gain power in specific regions to [insert conspiracy theory].

A tangentially related matter I see cited more often than not in these circles, are about an uptick in vaccine-caused paralysis occurring in India, causing the foundation to be kicked out.

The argument being that an uptick in “non-polio acute flaccid paralysis” (NPAFP) was recorded in areas where the oral vaccine was distributed, and this subsequently got the foundation “kicked out of India” (quoted because, as source below states, this is false) [0]

[0] https://fullfact.org/online/gates-polio-vaccine/

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by AndrewBissell on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @05:28PM (#24276362)
There's no need to refer to "conspiracy theories" (although Bill Gates's close ties to Jeffrey Epstein after his 2007 trafficking conviction did not do him any favors there). The ulterior purposes of the Gates Foundation are pursued mostly in the open:

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/bill-gates-foundat...

https://www.cjr.org/criticism/gates-foundation-journalism-fu...

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by mullingitover on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @06:17PM (#24276878)
That The Nation article seems to be implying that Gates is dodging his civic duties to pay taxes and support nice things like public infrastructure, but at the same time he's also avoiding paying for terrible things like funding the military which bombs things like weddings and Médecins Sans Frontières hospitals.

Gates has done some shady things in his day, but I can't fault him for that one. His fortune is a drop in the bucket of the federal budget, but being able to control and target his charity makes a hell of a lot of difference in the world. It's not like the federal government was going to cure polio in Africa, but for a few billion more dollars in tax revenue.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by soperj on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @05:35PM (#24276422)
Because it doesn't just do good. It's completely screwed up public education in the states for instance.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by manigandham on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @09:49PM (#24278241)
How so?
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by soperj on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @11:47AM (#24283522)
They're responsible for common core.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by monetus on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @04:47PM (#24275907)
I would assume there to be a multitude of bad reasons, but as for a good one.. If you forced me to pick one driving one, the perception that he is laundering his reputation through philanthrophy would hopefully be it.

A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad the good.

Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by strictnein on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @04:52PM (#24275955)
His reputation didn't really need "laundering". He ran a software company, sometimes aggressively, but people act like he ran a private military corporation and trafficked in blood diamonds.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by vlunkr on Tuesday August 25, 2020 @05:38PM (#24276468)
Agreed, outside of unix-like tech circles, I don't know that his reputation was ever that bad.
Re:Africa declared free of wild polio by monetus on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @07:05AM (#24281291)
I would say the negative perception extends pretty far past unix-like tech circles, now at least.