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Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by hirundo on Sunday August 23, 2020 @11:29AM (#24252549)
"if the government were to take over the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in five year" -- Milton Friedman (exaggerating, somewhat)

Better to put them on home roofs, and arrange for them to be owned by the homeowners, designed so that the occupants are (literally) empowered when the grid is mismanaged, as in California.

On highway medians control is more centralized, and they would require more maintenance and cleaning, which would be more disruptive in that location.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by Retric on Sunday August 23, 2020 @11:56AM (#24252753)
Rooftop photovoltaic is currently more expensive, less efficient, and surprisingly dangerous to install. Solar thermal designs actually benefit from being on rooftops.

As to dust, economies of scale make a huge difference. It’s rarely worth it, but using a farm truck to spray water across miles of panels is much more efficient than tens of thousands of homeowners doing the same.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by samatman on Sunday August 23, 2020 @03:24PM (#24254548)
It's also unattractive, which should matter to us.

Much of the distinctive beauty of traditional building in sunny areas comes from the roofs.

Solar tiling, which is still not a mature technology, doesn't add danger: we have to put something on a roof, and if installing solar tile takes extra time, it isn't by much. And it looks good.

Less efficient and more expensive? Sure. But as the meme would have it, it's free real estate. And since we're living through a grotesque failure of robustness on a civilizational scale, let me point out that it's more robust as well, particularly combined with on-site batteries.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by Nasrudith on Sunday August 23, 2020 @04:53PM (#24255206)
Why do they count as unattractive? It seems that the "definition" of eyesore is wholey independent of aesthetics and entirely based upon if it is functional and new. Old windmills, steam engine trains, and canals are considered quaint, wind turbines, shipping canals and modern trains are considered "visual pollution". Modern art fixtures often deliberately defy all rules of structure and aesthetics and don't get tarred with this. I only have weird hypothesises as for why.
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by chii on Sunday August 23, 2020 @09:54PM (#24256909)
> unattractive

people used to say wind turbines are unattractive. Culture determines what's attractive, and it can be made to look nice.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by Gibbon1 on Sunday August 23, 2020 @05:13PM (#24255340)
I'm dubious about rooftop solar in suburban/urban areas. I think the gain is mostly from tax write offs and arbitrage. Compare hand installing solar panels on a roof with mechanized installation of a large scale solar array.

Just isn't going to compete with stuff like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk21aAaJL_s

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by baq on Sunday August 23, 2020 @05:49PM (#24255557)
Generation of power at the point of consumption is nothing to sneeze at. It’s also efficient use of space. Taxes can work as incentivizing tool instead of or in addition to generating revenue for the government which is precisely what’s going on here.
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by Nextgrid on Sunday August 23, 2020 @02:16PM (#24253965)
What dangers are we talking about? Do solar panels add extra danger compared to just normal roof maintenance work?
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by Retric on Sunday August 23, 2020 @03:02PM (#24254369)
To be clear their not that dangerous, but we are still talking extra deaths and accidents. Mostly from increased amount of time people spend on residential roofs. Roofing is about 30 deaths per 100,000 full time workers which is about double the average rate for construction.

Currently instillation is the primary, but not only risk. You also get electrical accidents and in rare cases fires. Plus an increased tendency for people to go onto a roof to check them out and or clean them etc. And some extra roof maintenance due to leaks from improper installation etc.

Personally, I don’t think it’s a major deal at the individual level. However, I thik it should be considered in terms of public policy.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by brightball on Sunday August 23, 2020 @01:05PM (#24253323)
First I’ve heard of solar thermal. Any good links?
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by discreteevent on Sunday August 23, 2020 @01:24PM (#24253523)
Goes back years. Simplest form is a squiggly pipe behind a pane of glass. Water runs slowly through the pipe and heats up.
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by onionisafruit on Sunday August 23, 2020 @01:25PM (#24253530)
Think rooftop solar water heaters.
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by dehrmann on Sunday August 23, 2020 @01:27PM (#24253555)
It's most efficient to put the panels in a centralized location with high amounts of sunlight on mounts that track the sun. You get significantly higher yield because of the tracking and the location, and maintenance is cheaper because it's centralized.

The fact that you see far more home installations than farms means farms aren't economically viable, neither is home PV without subsidies, but people buy into the "empowerment" fantasy.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by nxc18 on Sunday August 23, 2020 @01:56PM (#24253799)
Empowerment isn’t really a fantasy if there are rolling blackouts but your own power is still on. Sadly, not a hypothetical in California.

Im thinking just from a national security/redundancy/risk reduction standpoint it makes sense to move more generation closer to demand. There are lots of single points of failure in our power grid currently.

Edit: this is assuming the solar setup is designed to enable use when power is out; I assume homeowners who care about empowerment would make that investment, but you know what they say about assuming.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by dehrmann on Sunday August 23, 2020 @02:28PM (#24254072)
> Empowerment isn’t really a fantasy if there are rolling blackouts but your own power is still on. Sadly, not a hypothetical in California.

Seems easier to get a generator or a Power Wall, but either ends up being pretty expensive for handling the 2 hours of rolling blackouts for the first time in 20 years. There are also longer-term outages, maybe several hours every few years? And this is for people in population centers. Living in the mountains is a different story.

> Im thinking just from a national security/redundancy/risk reduction standpoint it makes sense to move more generation closer to demand

I'd rather put the money towards removing those single points of failure.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by Izkata on Monday August 24, 2020 @09:36AM (#24260488)
> Seems easier to get a generator or a Power Wall, but either ends up being pretty expensive for handling the 2 hours of rolling blackouts for the first time in 20 years.

The price of electricity changes over the day along with demand. I don't know by how much, but maybe if the Power Wall could be used in the high-cost hours and charged in the low-cost hours, it would make a difference?

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by masklinn on Sunday August 23, 2020 @01:43PM (#24253698)
The balance of tracking mounts is not trivial.

They increase efficiency a lot (up to 40% for dual-axis trackers) but they also decrease ground a lot coverage, they increase cost of installation and cost of ownership, and they decrease availability.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by sroussey on Sunday August 23, 2020 @02:26PM (#24254052)
It balances out to the positive.

See https://heliogen.com/

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by masklinn on Sunday August 23, 2020 @02:34PM (#24254131)
That's a heliostat system, not a solar panel system. Both involve the sun but they do so very differently.

It's also a company which wants to sell heliostats, they're not going to tell you it sucks.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by imtringued on Sunday August 23, 2020 @02:25PM (#24254038)
Solar farms are in centralized locations. It is entirely possible that no farm has been constructed in that specific area.
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by pwagland on Sunday August 23, 2020 @01:21PM (#24253483)
> if the government were to take over the Sahara Desert, there would be a shortage of sand in five year" -- Milton Friedman (exaggerating, somewhat)

I know that this is meant to be a humorous comment, however, desert sand is not really usable for most things that we want sand for, for example, it is not suitable for concrete, since it is too fine. (https://petroleumservicecompany.com/blog/could-desert-sand-b...)

This is why, desire being in a desert, Dubai imports its sand! (https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20160502-even-desert-ci...)

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by singron on Sunday August 23, 2020 @11:43AM (#24252666)
Solar panels on home roofs aren't necessarily configured to power the house without the grid. Also you would additionally need batteries and related hardware to have a usable source of power at any time, so unless your house is set up for off-grid solar, you still need the grid to be managed well.
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by mysterydip on Sunday August 23, 2020 @11:50AM (#24252707)
Found this out in the house we are renting with solar panels installed by landlord. Bright sunny day, someone hits a pole nearby, power goes out.

There are two kinds of solar: one that adds to the existing signal from the mains, or one that is self-contained. The second kind is more complicated and therefore expensive. I wasn't aware of the distinction before, but I definitely am now.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by yellow_lead on Sunday August 23, 2020 @12:19PM (#24252943)
Aren't there setups that can do both as well? i.e charge battery first and send excess to the grid?
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by qayxc on Sunday August 23, 2020 @12:38PM (#24253103)
The setups have to be separate (e.g. different outlets for mains and solar) to protect the grid.

Even a small home solar installation puts out enough power to easily kill unsuspecting maintenance personell working on the grid, for example.

So the utility company has to have 100% control over he mains at all time for safety reasons (i.e. your meter must never run backwards). If they cut the power (e.g. for maintenance or repairs), no one must be able to feed power into the grid.

That's why even if you have a battery, said battery can either feed into the grid, or be connected to separate outlets in your house, but never both at the same time.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by danans on Sunday August 23, 2020 @01:16PM (#24253443)
> So the utility company has to have 100% control over he mains at all time for safety reasons

This is controlled independently by the solar inverters's software, not the utility via any sort of signal. That software is mandated by regulation as you say for the safety of line workers. Recent batteries allow for an "islanding" mode, which allows continued backup power delivery to the house during a grid outage but cuts off the grid connection.

> your meter must never run backwards

... during a grid outage. During normal operation it's fine for it to run backwards. That's what net metering quantifies.

> said battery can either feed into the grid, or be connected to separate outlets in your house, but never both at the same time.

I think this is a technical limitation, since it would require a current divider and 2 inverters, which is a level of complexity not worth it for the application.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by qayxc on Sunday August 23, 2020 @01:23PM (#24253519)
> During normal operation it's fine for it to run backwards. That's what net metering quantifies.

Hm. Different countries, different regulations I guess. In my country you have to install a second meter instead.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by gbrown on Sunday August 23, 2020 @01:51PM (#24253758)
That's not true, you can have an inverter setup which fails over to a battery backup when the grid goes down. It's also done all the time with natural gas generators.

The setup is more expensive, and it does have to meet certain requirements, but it is definitely an option.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by samatman on Sunday August 23, 2020 @03:28PM (#24254569)
True but, this has been made illegal in many places, California among them.

I don't actually know whether that's legislatively illegal, or simply banned by PG&E; but the effect is much the same.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by nitrogen on Sunday August 23, 2020 @01:07PM (#24253351)
Meters run backward intentionally when selling solar back to the utility. You need a switching system that will isolate immediately if the grid fails, and resync with the grid AC before reconnecting, if you want to be able to operate on and off the grid.
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by qayxc on Sunday August 23, 2020 @01:22PM (#24253497)
That depends on the country then - in my country, you need to install a secondary meter instead.
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by c22 on Sunday August 23, 2020 @12:37PM (#24253098)
Yes, but any setup that's capable of feeding power back to the grid requires costly safety interlocks to allow linemen to make repairs at the street without your house unexpectedly energizing the line. Some jurisdictions just outright disallow it.
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by apcragg on Sunday August 23, 2020 @12:30PM (#24253033)
Sure but they are more expensive. You need a rock solid controller with beefy and redundant electronics to make sure you're never going to be connected to the grid when you shouldn't be.
Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by danans on Sunday August 23, 2020 @12:57PM (#24253257)
> Better to put them on home roofs, and arrange for them to be owned by the homeowners, designed so that the occupants are (literally) empowered when the grid is mismanaged, as in California.

It turns out that the same California that you criticize now requires solar on newly built homes, just as you recommend, and much to the chagrin of people who feel like the state government is impinging on individuals' rights to build however they please.

Re:Semi-transparent solar panels allow concurrent production... by p1mrx on Sunday August 23, 2020 @03:48PM (#24254717)
> the occupants are (literally) empowered when the grid is mismanaged, as in California.

The California blackouts started around sunset, when solar dropped off the grid. Building more solar without an appropriate amount of storage just makes the problem worse.