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Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by alex_t on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:22PM (#24228420)
I am trying to understand why is this business model from apple not acceptable, from my point of view the way apple makes money on the apple store is with the 30% fees on transations. In exchange they give out tools, libraries and services for free. Do i get that wrong?

with that in mind isnt the request of Epic something like: "We want access to all your platform and tools for free?"

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by simion314 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:27PM (#24228498)
If I have an ebook store and want to give iOS users a nice experience when buying books Apple will make the books more expensive with 30% and on top of that if I want to give my users information that they have the option to buy cheaper from my website I can't , Apple is preventing their users to get informed/educated on how to get cheaper stuff because this information costs Apple money.

Btw you can have apps that do not use any of Apple SDKs (for example engines will use the OS core and neither of the fancy GUI toolkits and languages)

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by alex_t on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:31PM (#24228546)
> If I have an ebook store and want to give iOS users a nice experience when buying books Apple will make the books more expensive with 30% and on top of that if I want to give my users information that they have the option to buy cheaper from my website I can't , Apple is preventing their users to get informed/educated on how to get cheaper stuff because this information costs Apple money.

Well i go back to my argument of isnt that like saying: "i like to use your ebook platform to sell my stuff, but i dont want to pay for it"

the fact that you switched from software to ebook does not change the fact that you want to choose to be able to sell without giving a commission to apple for the store they did set up

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by simion314 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:27PM (#24229206)
Sure, if is not the excuse that the wall garden if for the user safety or for the user privacy and in fact it makes things more expensive for the user and it prevents user getting informed then we change to the excuse that is Apple hardware and Apple can fuck their customers as long as is legal and PR is good enough,

You are defending Apple not allowing developers to present their customers a simple text information, at least for now your banking apps are not taxed by Apple.

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by panpanna on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:59PM (#24228899)
How about the $99/yr app store fee they already pay?
Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by danudey on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:09PM (#24229012)
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that Epic's $99 doesn't cover the cost of Apple actually hosting and distributing Fortnite and its updates to users.
Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by panpanna on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:29PM (#24229232)
Well, Apple TOS forbids them using their own servers for updates (which btw Facebook ignores and gets away with)..

But what would be a fair price? Given how cheap bandwidth and storage is would $50,000 suffice? Surely that's closer to apples real costs than 30% of hundreds of million dollars they want now?

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by scarface74 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:50PM (#24228783)
Can I put a book in your hypothetical ebook store without giving you a cut?
Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by simion314 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:31PM (#24229259)
If I made such a store I would use the web hosting model, you have a super cheap plan and if you want more feature you pay extra, I would care about your sales similar on how web hosting do not care about what you sell from your website.

Why is web hosting so cheap and you have so many options? Because of competition, allow competition with at least 5 stores and you will see different prices and features.

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by alex_t on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:44PM (#24229386)
Let's say running an ebook service, that cost cost you some money, a portion of your profit will go into building this shop, that will also be used by another party, because you have millions of users and a good trusted brand. in order to sell on that market you sell a some subcription based like a web hosting.

Party B, after using your premuim service, decide he will use your service just as a frontstore, sending your customer to his own website to complete purchase.

in your opinion that is a fair situation?

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by simion314 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:03PM (#24229556)
Yes, my web hosting is not jealous if I pay them 100$/year and I do sales of 1 million. If say my site generates too much traffic then I will have to upgrade the CPU,HDD etc. They make money when I am successful and use their resources. I can always change the web hosting and still reach my existing customers where with Apple I can't reach my existing customers if Apple kicks me out(see Epic)
Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by alex_t on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:21PM (#24229705)
I dont think that is a fair comparison, you took away all the issues with branding, your customer dont really care if you are hosting a website yourself or aws or anything else, probably most of them wont even know what that means.

If you want to start to sell ebooks (or anything really) you get an advantage by placing it in a well known store, you can prove me wrong but i think that is a fair statement.

So it is really hard for me to accept as fair a situation where you could build a store, build the brand reputation, host other people product and not get a compensation.

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by simion314 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:53PM (#24229963)
Netflix or Epic do not benefit of Apple Store brand, my bank does not put their app in Google or Apple sore because they hope to get on "top apps" , they put their app there because they have no choice, the users are there and they want an app.

If you think the Apple Sore brand or "top apps" is important then have extra options (like web hosting). So I might not want my app to be promoted, I just want my users to be able to install the app I link from my website similar how they can install it on their PC. If my updates are eat6inb bandwidth then I pay for that, if I want to be promoted I can pay for that, if I want support I can pay for that, if I want an IDE I can pay for that etc.

I think you are putting popular apps like Netflix,Epic,Dropbox, my bank thagt have no choice to be on all platforms with some small video game or TODO app that benefits by getting exposed to people on a "Top apps" or "Similar apps" screen.

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by alex_t on Thursday August 20, 2020 @07:52PM (#24230378)
yes, i am putting all the developer on the app store on the same level, because coding into law the distinction that it's so obvious for you is not going to be easy. at what point "randomgamecompany" became so big to be promoted to "i dont need to pay for the app store anymore." Laws are not perfect, nobody should work for free.
Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by simion314 on Friday August 21, 2020 @03:23AM (#24232824)
It is not about the law, is about your attitude, you are treating all applications like all are something a developer put together to make some quick money profiting of Apple market.

Also I don't believe Apple is incapable of creating more fair rules(maybe you can't come up with this rules but Apple has the money to spend on smart people to work a few months on this) they don't want to do it.

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by scarface74 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:30PM (#24229789)
You’re not talking about web building. You’re talking about an online store.

If I get kicked off of Epic’s platform. Where do I go?

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by simion314 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:56PM (#24229987)
>If I get kicked off of Epic’s platform. Where do I go?

Steam, GOG, Windows Store, itch.io put your app on mega/GDrive,Dropbox and share the link on Facebook and Twitter should I continue ?

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by scarface74 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @07:38PM (#24230293)
I guess I should be more specific. If I get kicked off of Fortnite, can I play in Fortnite’s sandbox? Can I buy virtual coins to use in Fortnite from a third party?

Why does Epic get to be the only company that can sell virtual currency in Fortnite?

What if instead of buying apps with money, Apple made everyone by “Apple points” to buy things on the App Store like MS use to do?

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by simion314 on Friday August 21, 2020 @03:29AM (#24232850)
>I guess I should be more specific. If I get kicked off of Fortnite, can I play in Fortnite’s sandbox?

There are more then 1 alternatives to Fortnite but I can't name them. This is a bad example, you compare 1 free game with a store. Stay on topic and let/s compare stores like Google Play, Steam, GOG etc. Is Steam taking 30% if you buy some skin in a game? Is GOG doing that? Are this stores blocking you showing a text with a link to your website purchase page?

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by panpanna on Thursday August 20, 2020 @04:50PM (#24228787)
> Do i get that wrong?

Yes.

> We want access to all your platform and tools for free?

Well, they do pay the $99 annual fee + cost of a Mac required for submitting to the store :)

More seriously, you are wrong because Epic/Spotify/etc don't mind giving apple money when they use their payment infrastructure _but_ want to be able to also use their own infrastructure and sell things 30% cheaper.

And yes, for companies with multiple sale points (fortnite is also on PC and consoles ?), apple TOS forbids Epic selling things cheaper elsewhere which means in-game item prices are artificially increased by up to 30% on _all platforms_.

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by danudey on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:07PM (#24228986)
> which means in-game item prices are artificially increased by up to 30% on _all platforms_.

Or means that Epic takes a 30% hit on revenue on the App Store and Google Play Store in exchange for the services provided.

Do you honestly believe that this is about Epic trying to lower prices for their users? It's not, it's about Epic getting all of the pie instead of just 70% of the pie. If Apple had caved before this stunt then prices would have stayed the same, but Epic would be taking it all themselves rather than having to pay Apple the 30% cut.

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by panpanna on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:20PM (#24229130)
I am fine with epic getting a bigger piece of the pie, after all they are doing the work and apple is just taxing them. We are talking about 30% of hundreds of millions of dollars. The yearly developer fee Epic pays Apple should cover apples costs more than enough.

Apple and google already allow certain companies (uber, netflix,... ) to pay much less which by itself is anti-competitive.

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by mvanbaak on Thursday August 20, 2020 @06:00PM (#24229525)
You are missing the fact that epic is not a payment provider. So if they dont pay apple the 30%, they will have to pay stripe or adyen or any other psp. Most of those ask 0.25$ + 2% per transaction. For a fortnite skin of 0,99 or even whole apps that cost 0,99 that 30% is lower than the costs of other psp’s. And apple provides a lot more than just payments for that 30%. They handle disputes and refunds etc. and the handle all the money exchanges with sales is other countries etc
Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by 7786655 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @07:55PM (#24230404)
You're trying to argue that Apple IAP is a good deal for Epic, but Epic has clearly decided that it isn't.
Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by alex_t on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:00PM (#24228904)
but how is this different from, for example, me selling stuff on amazon? i want to access the amazon customer pool, so i pay amazon a fee to do it?

what would be apple alternatives that would not imply giving away services for free? i still have an hard time understanding this part: i understand that 30% cut i a lot i am not defending the 30% tax.

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by izacus on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:08PM (#24229005)
Amazon itself is in hot waters for antitrust, so perhaps you shouldn't use them as an example.

Still, there's a giant difference - Amazon's "customer pool" isn't forced to buy only on Amazon and Amazon doesn't force YOU to ONLY sell the same item to that "customer pool" (I like how you use a term that makes people seem like inanimate objects.) via Amazon.

This is a massive difference. All the benefits of free market (as opposed to command economy) are derived from customers being able to freely choose another vendor and product to purchase. Monopolized integrated services are just a corporate version of command economy where a single actor dictates pricing and eliminates competition leading to severe lack of innovation and worse products for everyone.

Re:App stores, trust and anti-trust by panpanna on Thursday August 20, 2020 @05:14PM (#24229063)
The $99/yr fee is supposed to cover apples costs for the store. Google asks for $25 and they have 6 times more devices to serve...

At this point the 30% is basically free money they get on someone elses hard work. And there is no consistency, some companies pay much less.

This is even more wrong in case of Spotify which is a direct competitor to apple music. Apple basically makes their competition 30% more expensive hence less competitive. (And you can by no means claim Spotify is big because of app store so the fee is fair, they exited before the first iPhone)