News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by benologist on Thursday August 20, 2020 @10:50AM (#24223871)
It doesn’t matter because if the rules permit Epic then they will permit anybody else who wants to make an app store too. GitHub for instance.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by mrtksn on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:28AM (#24224241)
It matters for discoverability and frictionless installs/payments. That's the hardest part these days.

I am not thrilled by the idea of uneven developer access to the primary channels. Now I pay Apple 100$ and the %30 commission and I have my apps right next to the big boys. Apparently the big boys are planning to get free of the %30 and have their own walled garden where potentially I am not allowed.

There's a risk of proliferation of a business model that is possible on the Epic Store but not on AppStore and I am not welcome to join.

As a developer I would prefer a regulation to the AppStore for even access instead of alternative appstores.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by Apocryphon on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:55PM (#24226262)
App Store discoverability is getting worse as it is. For the indies, having more channels to get their apps found might not be such a bad thing.

https://twitter.com/wilshipley/status/1270568780712706049

https://ericasadun.com/2015/11/11/finding-triviata-on-the-ap...

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by SXX on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:31AM (#24224282)
I think it's safe bet to say that if Epic allowed to make their own mobile game app store then Valve will likely follow suit.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by mrtksn on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:37AM (#24224346)
So is Valve allowing any developer to get its games into their store under reasonable conditions ?
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by strombofulous on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:17PM (#24224819)
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by mrtksn on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:38PM (#24225090)
I am glad to hear that.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by SXX on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:21PM (#24224860)
Yeah, they even allow adult-only games now.

They still blocked few very controversial titles that include rape and some other crazy shit, but otherwise almost anything can be published on Steam.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by cma on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:01PM (#24224635)
Humble and Itch.io could make stores too.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by mrtksn on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:06PM (#24224684)
So I will have to convince my potential customers to first install the app store that I can get in then they will have to remember to install my app once they complete the set up of the alternative store.

Is this even working on Android or anywhere?

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by blackoil on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:43PM (#24225182)
If you are a small indie app, you can stick with the biggest or a popular store. Likes of microsoft and Epic will fight to get there own stores installed or Apple will loosen is grip.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by cma on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:16PM (#24224808)
I've used the Amazon, Samsung and Oculus stores on Android. And I think direct APK downloads from Humble a long time ago.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by mrtksn on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:32PM (#24224991)
Good for you but are you going to pay me few thousand dollars a month so I can sustain an independent business? Probably not. What I need is access to a lot of people who are willing to pay me a small sum each for the software that I make. Multiple appstores with uneven access is unlikely to help with that and would probably increase my development costs too.

That's not that big a problem for established and big companies but it is something that I am not looking forward to.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by Apocryphon on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:52PM (#24226219)
Deploying your software to these different stores probably doesn't involve as much friction as you think it does, and if there is a proliferation of stores one could imagine services springing up in the space to facilitate multi-store deployments and to make the process easier on developers. I mean, if it really is such a worry to you then someone will make a product to help with it because it is a business opportunity. TestFlight, after all, was invented because beta-testing Apple's apps used to be (more) awful.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by donmcronald on Thursday August 20, 2020 @08:39PM (#24230673)
It's not a walled garden if you have multiple options. If there are competing app stores you only need to publish on one of them. Based on what I've read a lot of users think Apple is the only one capable of running a high quality app store and since they'd be the default anyway you can continue to publish there and nothing changes.

How does also having the potential to distribute on another app store make it worse?

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by mrtksn on Friday August 21, 2020 @02:55AM (#24232698)
> If there are competing app stores you only need to publish on one of them

That's only good for having to say that you have an app. Putting that app in the hands of the people is a different story and it's the hard part.

When there are multiple app stores, you can only access the people on that app store which can drastically reduce your market size. It is not realistic to be able to make people install and set up an app store and then install your app. Yeah sure, you can convince few very interested people every now and then but on mobile this doesn't make a business.

It is likely that the original App Store will shrink as some people will move to other stores where you might not be allowed to publish. Also, multiple stores creates support nightmare for the users since they will no longer be able to talk to Apple and get their refunds. People would no longer be confident when doing a purchase. This is very bad for independent developers who are not hobbyist but hope to make living.

Sure, it would be nice for few hobbyists to get their torrent client in the iPhone but it would significantly disadvantage all small independent businesses. When you are small, the cuts and the commissions are not a problem, the reach and gaining trust is.

IMHO:

1) AppStore should be regulated to give equal opportunity to all. Right now there are some problems but it is not broken. An idea would be to have an special API to provide alternative appstore through backend integration but have all this completely invisible to the users. For example, maybe you should be able to link to an alternative appstore but the install process be exactly the same as the original AppStore, payments handled exactly the same but get the commisions to bare minimum when the provider is the alternative appstore. This is like the "repository" concept on Linux app stores, the problem is the customer support when something goes bad. It doesn't work well when the users don't have someone holding both the responsibility and the power to solve their problem. How is Apple supposed to handle the help request due to issues caused by other stores?

2) Jailbreaking should be an option provided by Apple. People should have the freedom to jailbreak their device and do whatever they want with it. Probably should be hard to do to make sure that it's done only by people who know what they are doing.

3) Commissions should probably differentiate for stuff like Spotify v.s. In game coins because on Spotify, they actually don't sell their original content but deal it by buying it from the musicians.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by donmcronald on Friday August 21, 2020 @04:20PM (#24238508)
> other stores where you might not be allowed to publish

But that's the case with the current app store already isn't it? At least with competing app stores I could publish my app _somewhere_ if Apple rejects it.

I don't think regulating the app store or forcing them to transparently integrate other app stores would work either. Allowing _anyone_ to publish an app store would have it's own issues, so I think it would have to be gated by money. Ex: Apple can charge $1 million to publish your app store. That would exclude me from running an app store, but also excludes bad actors.

Apple also has a huge lead with services that support iOS devs, so it's not like someone will build a competing store that's on par immediately. If a new Epic store needed to re-implement everything Apple has _and_ provide those features via a stable API, they still have a huge uphill battle because if both stores are equal, devs will prefer the Apple version since it would be the default on all devices.

I don't really get the argument I see with people being reliant on Apple for refunds. On the PC, it's an expectation for a store to have a refund policy where you can automatically collect a refund. It would be the same on mobile if they wanted to compete. Apple doesn't have a monopoly on good customer service even though they've done a really good job of convincing people they do.

> Sure, it would be nice for few hobbyists to get their torrent client in the iPhone but it would significantly disadvantage all small independent businesses. When you are small, the cuts and the commissions are not a problem, the reach and gaining trust is.

I really disagree with that. Before Apple was successful with the walled garden approach I could develop and app and be 100% guaranteed I'd be able to publish it. Now I get no guarantees and since I'm a small developer I have no negotiating power. I don't have a big social media following and if Apple or Google refuse to publish my app it's tough luck for me. Large incumbent developers can pick up the phone and talk to someone at Apple or Google. Small developers can't.

I agree the pricing isn't much of an issue for small developers. You can plan around that and I think it's safe to assume prices aren't going up anytime soon. It's losing the ability to be guaranteed you can publish your app that's the problem. I said the same thing when the app store was new. If I'm developing a custom LoB (line of business) app for another small business, how can I guarantee them I'll be able to get it on their devices? I can't and the enterprise programs aren't an option for a one off LoB app. You'll notice that kind of stuff doesn't really exist on the mobile app stores and everything has trended to large SaaS offerings. There used to be a market for custom small business apps on the PC and that's completely disappeared in the last decade because of the walled garden app stores.

IMHO it would be possible for someone to run a better app store than Apple and that's what they're afraid of. Even though the "quality" of the app store is touted a lot around here it's filled with garbage. Watch a kid play a game for 30 minutes and you'll see a ton of ads for other low effort games where the whole ecosystem is similar to advertising click fraud. The number of un-closable, misleading, click incentivizing ads in kids games is appalling.

So I can imagine an app store that caters to high quality apps and games for kids where everything is paid up-front (no IAP) and there are no ads. It's that kind of niche, super high quality curation that I think Apple and Google are terrified of.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by mrtksn on Saturday August 22, 2020 @01:15AM (#24241751)
You are right that the current situation is not ideal too, I would prefer if there was a single store for iOS and Android. That said, simply because these problems already exists to some extent, it doesn't mean that amplifying them isn't going to make things worse.

> Before Apple was successful with the walled garden approach I could develop and app and be 100% guaranteed I'd be able to publish it

Publish and do what with it? Collect kudos from strangers? That's not good, I can't live on kudos, I should be able to do business. Surely you can adopt a business model where you collect and sell data about your users or sell access to your users(known as browser extension business) but I find that business model unethical and I don't want to be involved in it.

Business happens when money change hands, writing code and putting it out there is not a business(unless you are payed to do it for someone but that's a different situation). After a communist revolution things may change but until then, that's how it is.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by donmcronald on Saturday August 22, 2020 @03:21PM (#24246549)
> Publish and do what with it? Collect kudos from strangers?

To give you an example, I once sold a small, single screen app to a local business for about $2k.

That’s not great money, but at least is was something and still better than working a minimum wage job. Once I was done I knew 100% I could give them a Windows installer that would work for a very long time.

With the App Store model I don’t think I could have said yes to doing that work because the risk of not being able to deliver. The risks there would be eating the cost of the development and loss of reputation since they’d be annoyed at spending a bunch of time and getting nothing out of it.

Now things have come full circle and LoB apps would all be web apps.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by mrtksn on Sunday August 23, 2020 @07:30AM (#24251157)
2K USD one time is not a business
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by ForHackernews on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:42AM (#24224410)
Presumably Apple's app store would continue to exist as a first-among-equals even if regulators forced them to allow alternative app stores on the iOS platform.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by LoSboccacc on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:31AM (#24224275)
I wonder why steam isn't using his position to build an android games marketplace, since they already can.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by jamil7 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:57AM (#24224577)
Valve can barely keep steam working on one platform, not sure how they'll manage an Android marketplace too.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by m4rtink on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:22PM (#24225812)
IIRC they already support Windows, Linux and Mac.

Would not be that much of a stretch to support also Android.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by jamil7 on Friday August 21, 2020 @02:54AM (#24232692)
It's the same broken webapp on all three platforms though right?
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by m4rtink on Friday August 21, 2020 @09:01AM (#24234515)
Yeah, so not hard to have it broken on a 4th. ;-) (as if there wasnt already a ton of that stuff on Android...)
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by bokbok8379 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:36AM (#24224335)
Can't wait to have to log in to a different game store, one for each publisher, to buy games!
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by ROFISH on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:53AM (#24224539)
Honestly direct sales does seem to be where this might be headed.

Between safe, secure payment technologies such as (heh) Apple Pay and and safe, secure login systems such as (heh) Login with Apple, then really its super easy to not worry too much about the signup friction.

Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by mrtksn on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:03PM (#24224654)
The problem with direct payments is users trust. Crypto is a already available form of payment and there are many tools to take payments directly but it never took of besides for drugs and ransom payments.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by ROFISH on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:26PM (#24224909)
There are plenty of services such as Apple Pay (or equivalent tokenized services on other phones), 3D Secure, and/or PayPal that don't expose your PAN.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by Gwypaas on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:42PM (#24225156)
Europe is already essentially running on 3D Secure with 2FA. Becomes noticeable when buying from stores not having the EU as a significant market, usually American, which does not implement it. After the transaction is declined I'm forced to open my bank app and click the scary sounding "open my card for all internet purchases for 60 minutes" button.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by mrtksn on Thursday August 20, 2020 @12:43PM (#24225189)
That's not a problem, the problem is converting a user into a paying customer and the payment method is one serious friction point that Apple smoothed out so nicely. I am not concerned that I wouldn't receive the payment, I am concern that less people will bother going through the payment process.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by colinmhayes on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:44AM (#24224436)
I can't wait for the open source store that has less than 5% fees.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by mrtksn on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:52AM (#24224529)
I heard that it exist on Linux. It must be very lucrative.
Re:Fortnite’s battle with Apple and Google could have an imp... by Apocryphon on Thursday August 20, 2020 @01:37PM (#24226025)
This is the price we paid for killing brick and mortar stores.