I downvoted for the obnoxious phrasing of "Wrong. Try again." It goes against the first paragraph of the HN commenting guidelines: "Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive."
Virtue signalers pop out of the woodwork each time Israel is mentioned. They don't ask everyone to preface each mention on Turkey with their persecution of the Kurds or their refusal to accept the Armenian Genocide. They don't take each mention of Egypt to talk about the Coptic exodus but each mention of Israel has to be prefaced.....this is insanity.
I sincerely feel for the Palestinians because half the world is using them as their club for virtue signaling. This just eggs them to fight to the last Palestinian and give up every chance for peace and their own nation they ever had.
> Despite the 2005 Israeli disengagement from Gaza,[21] the United Nations, international human rights organisations, and the majority of governments and legal commentators consider the territory to be still occupied by Israel, supported by additional restrictions placed on Gaza by Egypt. Israel maintains direct external control over Gaza and indirect control over life within Gaza: it controls Gaza's air and maritime space, and six of Gaza's seven land crossings. It reserves the right to enter Gaza at will with its military and maintains a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza territory. Gaza is dependent on Israel for its water, electricity, telecommunications, and other utilities.[21] The system of control imposed by Israel is described as an "indirect occupation".
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
That being said, the occupation of Palestine nominally under PlO control is sufficient so that Israel is not a democracy.
Not to forget that rockets are routinely fired into Israel from Gaza. So, it seems Israel has good reasons to exercise that kind of control over Gaza.
The standard is occupation of a territory without giving them or its inhabitants the right to vote.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah%E2%80%93Hamas_conflict
While the current situation is an indicator that Palestinians don't get to choose their leaders.
However you slice it, Hamas is in full charge of Gaza. They can call for a new election whenever they want.
It is an easily verifiable series of events that took place in ~2006. Here's some sources.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2006/aug/21/israel
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/18/world/middleeast/hamas-le...
>While the current situation is an indicator that Palestinians don't get to choose their leaders
When your choice of leaders results in such retaliation, an election does not enable you to choose your leaders either.
The Palestinians definitely deserve democracy, however creating one will require more than just an election.
The moment they stop their shenanigans is the day the blockade ends.
I agree that creating a democracy needs more than just an election. However, perhaps letting them vote in some new people might result in governance that is willing to play ball and come up with some kind of agreement.
It was initiated as part of the postelection economic sanctions. Israel cites the rocket attacks for making it necessary to continue, but that is not the start.
>However, perhaps letting them vote in some new people might result in governance that is willing to play ball and come up with some kind of agreement.
Or it gives the US and Israel a chance to rectify their previous mistake and ensure their chosen candidates win. Democracy!
The Philistines were an Indo European people originally from Crete.
(of course there is much mixing after such a time, so "Arab" might not be completely off base).
No, you're getting downvoted for stating falsehoods. Israel economically and militarily controls the occupied territories. Holding phony elections for "leaders" that are powerless to do anything because they wield no state power is not democracy. This would be true even if Gaza wasn't under an illegal blockade which prevents residents of Gaza from leaving without Israeli permission and prevents those from other countries from visiting or engaging in commerce with Gaza without Israeli permission.
Reasonable people can disagree over what the way forward is in Israel, but people who deny reality in order to push their agenda are not reasonable.
Also, I talked to a palistinian friend and she thinks palistinians did not vote for Hamas becasue that was the choise. The other ones were just so corrupt. Any way your sentimate is just too reductive for a very complicated region.
You are being downvoted because you ignore history conveniently to support an apartheid state like Israel.
Palestinians Arabs have had one national election and Israeli Arabs vote as often as Israel has elections which seems to be happening every year.
Criticize Israel's conduct all you want but please come with facts.
> Israel does not allow free exercise of political activities; checkpoints and separation walls hinder many social activities. The Legislative Council cannot properly function because free travel is impossible, especially between Gaza and the West Bank, regardless of hostilities between Fatah and Hamas. Members of the Palestinian Legislative Council and other politicians have been subject to lengthy detentions by Israel or even killed
A political regime supporting an inherently antidemocratic system is not democractic by the definition.
They are also very fond of the Egyptian Sisi, an another tinpot despot.
And am not joking here. People need to finally stop thinking of it as a some kind of tinfoil thing. The Israel—Saudi—Egyptian axis is 100% real. It sounds bizarre, but its true, been documentary verified, and supported by accounts of many diplomats of 3rd countries, US included. The open source investigatory journalists, among other things, established the fact of regular visits of their top officials to each other's countries.
I was talking about the glories of Persian civilization and its glories and you had to drag in the "evil US-Saud-Egyptian" axis. You got an axe to grind.
No.
What you were actually talking about and what people might be taking issue with:
- an implied claim that Palestinians currently enjoy rights to self-determination
- comparing 4.5 million to 450 million people as if the welfare of those 4.5 million are not worthy of discussion
It's clear who has the axe to grind.
> get the facts right
You're demonstrating that anyone can pick any facts to tell any story.
According to 'haltingproblem, self determination is being able to vote in an election in an occupied territory where there is no freedom of movement and a large portion of the population is dependent on humanitarian aid.
Since this is all so simple and clear to you, can you please arrange your facts to explain what the 982 UN resolutions on the "Question of Palestine" are about?
https://www.un.org/unispal/data-collection/general-assembly/
> the "evil US-Saud-Egyptian" axis. You got an axe to grind.
Of course I do. For as long as I have a dime of moral judgement, and integrity, I will. Spawning Laden, Qaeda, other tinpot outfits, funding rogue dictatorships of Bashirs, Sisis, Gaddafis, committing the unspeakable barbarity of 9.11 attack, and effectively breaking the world as it is, for the last 20 years. What out of this is not worth the outrage???