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Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by sparker72678 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:16PM (#24212947)
> The notoriously bad energy efficiency of air conditioners

Air conditioners are actually pretty fantastically efficient for what they do. The problem with air conditioners is that there's no way to move a ton of heat without using a lot of energy. So, they do use a lot, but they make the most of it.

What's truly bad are our buildings that have the minimal insulation and sealing possible, leaking all that cold air right back out into the environment.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by eggsnbacon1 on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @02:05PM (#24213738)
New buildings are rather efficient in US. The problem is old buildings that use 5X the energy for HVAC.

I echo that AC is quite efficient. Far more efficient than traditional heating. There's a misconception that hot areas are less environmentally friendly due to AC. The opposite is true.

Hot areas are only 25 freedom units hotter than humans prefer. Cold areas have months of 50+ temperature difference.

The misconception persists because heat uses gas, which is 5-10X less expensive per BTU of energy than electricity. So it might be cheaper to heat cold areas than run AC in hot ones, but its much more damaging to the environment. Plus, hot climates are using a lot of renewables these days which impacts the environmental friendliness of electric but not gas.

I expect migration to the sun belt to accelerate, at least in the US. It makes a lot of sense from environmental perspectives. In some southern cities there's already long stretches every summer where daytime AC use runs on 70%+ renewable energy.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by dylan604 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @08:45PM (#24230712)
It is amazing how tight we can make buildings today. I had to learn a lot about HVAC on a remodeling job a few years ago. I had no idea that the drywall can be sealed so tight that when the HVAC system is running it can be next to impossible to open a door without a pressure release duct. Also saw how the HVAC system had vents to bring in air from outside with baffles controlled by the system. Can't remember exact purpose something about helping help control humidity as well as regulation to bring in "fresh" air to mix with the "stale" air in the building.

So some parts of construction techniques and building materials have improved significantly. However, when comparing the framing lumber used today to what was used in the 60s, I'm shocked that new construction doesn't fall over the first time the wolf huffs and puffs.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by sparker72678 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @09:23PM (#24230970)
The outdoor fresh air intakes are typically via ERVs (Energy recovery ventilation systems). These systems bring in fresh air, filter it, and typically run it through a heat exchanger to minimize energy losses as the fresh air comes and and the stale air goes out.

The purpose is to prevent buildup of harmful gasses and VOCs (everything from CO2 to CO to regular out-gassing of furnitures, etc) that can become dangerous if not cycled regularly.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by londons_explore on Thursday August 20, 2020 @10:16PM (#24231289)
2020: ”Poisonous stuff in our houses... Bad! Let's vent it to the environment!”

2120: The environment is all full of poisonous gasses from the people of 2020. Each house needs its own air purifier to make the outdoor air safe to breathe.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by MaxBarraclough on Friday August 21, 2020 @05:35AM (#24233436)
This is already a reality.

> the first Cordis hotel on mainland China boasts something that is genuinely rare in big Chinese cities: clean indoor air.

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2018/mar/27/china-clean-a...

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by adrianN on Friday August 21, 2020 @12:24AM (#24231944)
Luckily most organic compounds you find in indoor air aren't very stable.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by cyberdrunk on Friday August 21, 2020 @05:15AM (#24233341)
> 2120: The environment is all full of poisonous gasses from the people of 2020. Each house needs its own air purifier to make the outdoor air safe to breathe.

That's the case in much of the world already... I live in area where there's tons of smog in the colder months and consider installing a system for bringing in filtered air from the outside, so that I won't have to open windows for the 6+ months smog period.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by userbinator on Thursday August 20, 2020 @10:18PM (#24231303)
It's been my experience that the newer high efficiency buildings seem to be optimising for that rather aggressively to the detriment of breathable air, because the air in them certainly feels a lot stuffier than in the older ones I've been in. I can certainly see building owners setting the recirculation as high as they can get away with, for the lowest cost.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by londons_explore on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:53PM (#24231810)
"Stuffy" air is your body detecting CO2. You should totally do something about it.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by scottlamb on Friday August 21, 2020 @12:54AM (#24232108)
> Also saw how the HVAC system had vents to bring in air from outside with baffles controlled by the system. Can't remember exact purpose something about helping help control humidity as well as regulation to bring in "fresh" air to mix with the "stale" air in the building.

One reason is efficiency. In the Bay Area, it's common when the daytime high temperature is 80–90˚F for the nighttime low to be 50–60˚F. You can set your thermostat to 76˚F until sunset, then bring in outside air to cool down to 68˚F or below by sunrise. You get cool air when you're trying to sleep and avoid running the AC in the night or morning.

I'm getting my furnace & AC replaced today and was sad to learn I couldn't get one of these. The fresh air intake has to be at least 10' from the furnace flue vent, and that isn't practical with my home's design.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by Scoundreller on Friday August 21, 2020 @01:20AM (#24232209)
Can’t you run a pipe outside to extend the distance of your cold air intake?
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by scottlamb on Friday August 21, 2020 @01:33AM (#24232275)
The HVAC folks didn't seem to think that would be possible/practical. I don't know exactly why. It'd have to run along the top of the roof because I don't have an attic.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by lathiat on Thursday August 20, 2020 @09:56PM (#24231175)
Full Fresh Air is typically called an "economizer" at least in California. The idea of those is to save energy.

But there is also typically fresh air requirements to bring in some percentage of fresh air.

And lastly the HRV/ERV mentioned in the other comment is typically more a residential thing from what I've seen but that's totally a thing I want in my next house.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by akeck on Thursday August 20, 2020 @10:58PM (#24231510)
For regular posts on this topic, see the @buildingsciencefightclub Instagram account. Christine writes delightfully clear posts about modern building science.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by sd_mikey on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:18PM (#24231620)
I also suggest Matt Risinger’s YouTube channel. Lately he’s been talking about Passive House construction, which supposedly uses only 10% of the energy of a standard built house.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by yourapostasy on Friday August 21, 2020 @03:03AM (#24232741)
Adding to PassiveHaus and Passive House (separate standard from the original PassivHaus) standards, look into NetZero, and Perfect Wall (especially Lstiburek's institutional Perfect Wall).
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by DoofusOfDeath on Friday August 21, 2020 @12:28AM (#24231975)
> New buildings are rather efficient in US. The problem is old buildings that use 5X the energy for HVAC.

I was describing my home renovation project to someone who lives in Brazil. I don't how true this is for that entire country, but she said that it's very uncommon for Brazilian homes to have insulation.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by fyfy18 on Friday August 21, 2020 @04:23AM (#24233099)
This is the same for many homes in Spain and Portugal too. For most of the year it's warm enough outside and you can be comfortable without AC (especially if you are in an older building with thick stone walls), but then for the one or two months of winter it is so cold inside, even though it may only get down to 10C (50F) outside. Most houses rely on resistive electric heaters (if they have any) which end up being very expensive to run.

I live in a modern house in Northern Europe, and we don't even turn our heating on until it gets below freezing. Because we have good insulation, only then it starts to drop below 22C (72F) inside.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by gallegojaime on Friday August 21, 2020 @08:26AM (#24234288)
Completely true, many old homes in Madrid are freezing in the winter. New homes are more regulated in efficiency, however. I lived in a new A-rated flat with sophisticated central heating and thermosolar, paying 500€/mo for the actual home and about 10€/mo for heating.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by pmontra on Friday August 21, 2020 @09:35AM (#24234744)
Adding to this, I spent a week in a A-rated house. 30+ C outside and I never even looked for the remote of the air conditioner.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by CarbyAu on Thursday August 20, 2020 @09:57PM (#24231180)
Best marketing voice: "Why migrate to the sunbelt? Burn gas and wait for climate change to bring the warmth to you!"

...sigh. I really hope it doesn't go this way.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by tobyhinloopen on Friday August 21, 2020 @02:47AM (#24232657)
It already has. There is a noticeable shift in temperatures here in the Netherlands.

Hot days are getting hotter and much more frequent. Snow is getting rare. We had a yearly ice skating event that never happens anymore because there is no ice.

Weeks of 30C weather are getting more common while not long ago, hotter than 25C was considered exceptional.

It’s like daily temperatures are just shifted +5 degrees within 2 decades.

It’s not just my gut feeling, there are plenty of statistics

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by the-dude on Friday August 21, 2020 @03:20AM (#24232802)
Which yearly event was this?
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by himlion on Friday August 21, 2020 @03:48AM (#24232946)
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by the-dude on Friday August 21, 2020 @03:52AM (#24232968)
This event took place 15 times in the last century. How can this be yearly?
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by himlion on Friday August 21, 2020 @04:43AM (#24233196)
I agree it's hardly a yearly event, but this is definitely the even he is referring to. Theoretically yearly would be a better term.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by the-dude on Friday August 21, 2020 @08:28AM (#24234300)
Or maybe he meant to say rare event is still rare. Sounds a lot less alarmist too.

The whole comment is hyperbole.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by samplatt on Thursday August 20, 2020 @10:01PM (#24231203)
Already has, mate. There's no turning back, just a matter of damage mitigation, now.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by taneq on Friday August 21, 2020 @07:21AM (#24233927)
Any time I buy property I check how far above sea level it is, so I can estimate when I'll be able to sell it as beachfront property...
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by CarbyAu on Sunday August 23, 2020 @08:01PM (#24256362)
I absolutely agree regarding climate change nuances for long term property investing! Two things confound me: - good internet now for my relaxation gaming vs right location for climate change.

- predicting what council rates (US has Land tax I think?!?) might turn into when the town realises it will be half underwater...

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by gregmac on Friday August 21, 2020 @02:10PM (#24237366)
> New buildings are rather efficient in US.

They can be, and there's lots of modern construction techniques that are really good (search term "building science").

One big problem is that a lot of stuff is still built to "minimum code" which just isn't that great. On top of that, sloppy construction work can significantly undermine what is done. In my own house I've fixed several simple things, like missing insulation around vents and holes cut too big (or created by a hammer, rather than cutting).

Here's a good walkthrough of a house under construction showing lots of problems typical to any subdivision (non-custom) build: https://youtu.be/OmU2N_Q732A

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by aidenn0 on Friday August 21, 2020 @10:07AM (#24234993)
Is NG really over 5X cheaper than electricity? It seems like a NG genset that is better than 20% efficient wouldn't be that hard to build, yet I don't see people running their houses off of electricity that way.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by kingnothing on Friday August 21, 2020 @11:33AM (#24235720)
In the US, natural gas averages $11.85 per 1,000 cubic feet. Electric averages $0.13 / kwh.

1,000 cubic feet of natural gas is a bit over 1 million BTU. That converts to 297 kwh of electricity.

that 1,015,000 btu costs:

$38.61 in electric

$11.85 in natural gas

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by aidenn0 on Friday August 21, 2020 @02:42PM (#24237671)
So 3-4x rather than 5-10x
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by marcinzm on Thursday August 20, 2020 @08:32PM (#24230639)
[I was wrong]
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by roywiggins on Thursday August 20, 2020 @08:42PM (#24230690)
Air conditioners are often more than 100% efficient- they move more heat energy than they consume.

(Of course if you start with a fossil fuel, turn it into electricity, and then pipe that into an AC unit, the overall efficiency will be dropped by the efficiency of the power plant, but it's still somewhat made up for by the advantages of heat pumps)

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by KMag on Friday August 21, 2020 @12:28AM (#24231969)
As others have pointed out, the coefficient of performance is over 1.0. However, as I remember from my mechanical engineering classes, a single-stage piston compressor based refrigeration system found in most window-mount AC units, refrigerators, etc. typically operates at about half of the Carnot efficiency. Central AC units with scroll compressors do a bit better, and of course industrial chillers with multi-stage centrifugal compressors do quite a bit better.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by username505 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @09:25PM (#24230985)
This is false
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by URSpider94 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @10:56PM (#24231500)
What is false?
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by username505 on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:23PM (#24231641)
The total efficiency of an air conditioner will never be more than 100% based on design; you will never be able to remove more heat than what the system produces in net cooling effect based off of the energy consumption created from compression - this is what would lead you to the eventual path of the theory of the heat death of the universe. You may be able to remove heat from one place to another but never more than what the system produces. Heating systems are completely different regarding efficiency.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by tripletao on Friday August 21, 2020 @12:03AM (#24231855)
The ratio of thermal power moved to electrical power input is more properly called "coefficient of performance" rather than "efficiency", but it's far greater than 100% in modern equipment.

> From 1990 to 2013, U.S. shipment-weighted efficiency for residential split-system A/Cs increased from 9.5 SEER (~2.2 COP) to 14.9 SEER (~3.8 COP).

https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2016/07/f33/The%20Fu...

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by URSpider94 on Friday August 21, 2020 @02:13AM (#24232484)
I think you’re misunderstanding the terminology. In a heat engine, efficiency is the ratio of how much heat you can move per unit of energy you put in. An air conditioner can usually move substantially more than 1 joule of heat energy from one place to the other for each joule of energy put into the compressor.

Yes, the hot side will spit out all of the heat extracted from inside, plus the energy from the compressor operation, so indeed energy is conserved.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by stephen_g on Thursday August 20, 2020 @08:45PM (#24230709)
But heat pump heating and cooling has coefficient of performance / energy efficiency ratios around 3-4 (or even higher than 5 for certain applications!), so you more than make back your efficiency loss there.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by outworlder on Thursday August 20, 2020 @09:31PM (#24231021)
> What's truly bad are our buildings that have the minimal insulation and sealing possible, leaking all that cold air right back out into the environment.

In the case of the house I'm currently at, it is pretty good at retaining heat in "winter" (in quotes, because it's Bay Area winter). However, in the summer it will be quite warm late at night. So sometimes I want it the other way around, I want it to radiate excess heat away as fast as possible, but I can't control that. We should be able to deploy "heatsinks" at night.

That's for a house. Modern office buildings are built like greenhouses, even when they are otherwise insulated.

We can't really roll out solar panels fast enough. They would help offsetting the cooling energy costs by a lot. After all, it's during warm sunny days where the air-conditioning needs are the greatest. They also provide shade.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by dghughes on Thursday August 20, 2020 @09:45PM (#24231109)
Portable air conditioners are bad. All the hot components are in the room with you and it takes air from the room and blows it outside.

Technology Connections has a good video about this: https://youtu.be/_-mBeYC2KGc?t=355

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by userbinator on Thursday August 20, 2020 @10:38PM (#24231420)
That's true of the ones that have only one hose to the outside. Those with two hoses are much better, especially if you insulate the hoses:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24023979

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by thescriptkiddie on Thursday August 20, 2020 @11:41PM (#24231730)
I was recently shopping for an AC unit and had to get a portable one because I have bars over my windows. Having seen the Technology Connections video I naturally tried to get a dual-hose model, but after seeing the specs (and the prices) I ended up getting a single-hose model anyway.

If we go by the DOE SACC ratings, this single-hose toshiba [0] has a 14% higher SACC rating than this dual hose whynter [1], for the same BTU/hr rating. If we go by the wattage ratings (note: these are usually peak rather than average), the toshiba does use 13% more power than the whynter, so let's assume it cancels out and they both have the same energy efficiency. The toshiba is still $144 cheaper than the whynter. That's hard to justify for "dual hoses seem like they should be more efficient" without any actual evidence.

Please prove me wrong, before it's too late for me to return the single-hose one.

[0] https://www.toshiba-lifestyle.com/us/Room-Air-Conditioners/P...

[1] https://www.whynter.com/product/whynter-elite-12000-btu-dual...

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by bserge on Friday August 21, 2020 @03:56AM (#24232983)
The reason dual hose are more efficient is mainly that single hose portable A/Cs pull the air used to cool the radiator and compressor (and expel hot air outside) from the same room they're cooling.

That air has to come from somewhere, so it's going to pull warm air from everywhere it can, door, windows, any creaks/holes/openings, etc. And the fans have some serious airflow/CFM.

Dual hose designs pull air from outside and expel it back outside.

So technically it should be capable of getting your room colder and keeping it that way with less compressor usage.

The cold part of the A/C just circulates air around the room on any model.

Looking at my model, I could turn it into a dual hose design - it pulls air from the rear, right below the exhaust vent. That seems to be the case for a lot of these. Creating an attachment/adapter to connect another hose seems easy enough.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by bobloblaw45 on Friday August 21, 2020 @03:57AM (#24232991)
If you're suffering just get the single tube and look for a dual tube unit some time in the future. Singles aren't as great but they still do the job well enough that you're not dying from the heat.

I went years without any AC and my bedroom wall faces south. My room would get so hot in the summer I couldn't get any sleep. Tried an evaporative cooling unit because they're cheap which did absolutely nothing for me. Eventually broke down and got a portable AC which unfortunately was a single hose unit. You really need to look carefully at what you're buying because the whole single/dual tube thing doesn't seem to be something the sellers put out there. Even though it it was a single it still made a world of difference. On really hot days it doesn't get super cold but cool enough that I don't notice the heat.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by aeternum on Friday August 21, 2020 @03:47AM (#24232940)
The problem with an efficiency rating that includes air ingress is that the outdoor air temperature is an unconstrained variable.

The dual hose unit will likely outperform significantly if the temperature delta is high, but if the temp delta is low then the single-hose unit is probably better as it likely has a more efficient compressor.

It looks like DOE SACC tests assume the outdoor air temp is 83 degrees for 80% of your usage and 95 degrees for 20% of your usage.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by thescriptkiddie on Wednesday August 26, 2020 @06:37PM (#24288108)
I think you nailed it. The DOE SACC/CEER rating system provides more realistic numbers for comparing portables to window units, but the assumption of a small temperature differential gives single-hose units and unfair advantage over dual-hose units. A single-hose AC is like running your car AC on fresh air mode, it cools faster if the inside of the car is hotter than outside, but it can only drop the interior temperature so far below ambient.

In case anyone is interested, I did not end up returning my single-hose unit, but I did end up buying a dual-hose Whynter ARC-122DHP [0] for another room. It came with a yellow energy guide card listing a cooling capacity of 12000 BTUs and an EER of 11.1, which indicates an average power draw of just 1081 watts (EER=BTU/watt). Unfortunately no SACC or CEER rating was listed. Actually measuring power shows that it draws the full 1200 watts on startup, quickly drops to around 1100 watts, and then slowly drops to 900 watts as the room temperature falls. For comparison, my 8000 BTU (unknown EER, 6000 SACC, 6.5 CEER) single-hose Toshiba RAC-PD0812CRRU [1] also draws 1200 watts on startup, quickly drops to around 900 watts, and then slowly drops to 800 watts as the room temperature falls. So it seems like the dual-hose is around 20-30% more efficient (in a different room under arbitrary conditions) based off the BTU rating, but no better based off the SACC rating. I also noticed that it did not come with foam seals for the window bar like the single-hose unit did, so there is probably room for some efficiency gain there.

[0] https://www.whynter.com/product/whynter-elite-12000-btu-dual...

[1] https://www.toshiba-lifestyle.com/us/Room-Air-Conditioners/P...

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by aidenn0 on Friday August 21, 2020 @10:13AM (#24235030)
That's funny because I set my AC to 84, and only use it it outdoor temperature is over 86 (I live in a somewhat dry area: typical dewpoints are low-to-mid 60s on hot days).
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by taneq on Friday August 21, 2020 @07:30AM (#24233955)
Yeah, the real issue is that the open-cycle ones pump the hot air out of the room, sucking in more hot air. They're fine if they're blowing directly on you but other than that, not very effective. (I used one for a summer while working out of a spare room before I moved into an office with a proper split system. They're also super loud when they're right behind your head.)
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by closeparen on Friday August 21, 2020 @12:02AM (#24231852)
Portable air conditioners are a band-aid for people whose landlords or HOAs prohibit external HVAC components.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by ianai on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @01:53PM (#24213556)
There’s also no obvious market factor incentivizing modernization of old RE let alone efficiency.
Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by ekianjo on Friday August 21, 2020 @03:34AM (#24232878)
> The notoriously bad energy efficiency of air conditioners

Their efficiency is based on thermodynamics, so there's not much you can do to break the physical barriers.

Re:“Cold Tube” cooling system uses half the energy of an air... by contravariant on Friday August 21, 2020 @06:22AM (#24233652)
I'm fairly certain air conditioners aren't operating anywhere near the thermodynamic limit. At ordinary ambient temperature you could maintain a temperature difference of 10C with about 3000% efficiency.