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Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by noisy_boy on Monday August 17, 2020 @09:07AM (#24186838)
I get the point of low cost phone to keep the price low. I also know that there is a group that, rightfully, enjoys hacking on low-powered hardware to push it to limits. However, I wonder if there is also an opportunity to also sell high spec hardware, maybe in limited quantity. These phones are not for the masses anyway and I'm sure there is a Linux enthusiasts segment with pockets deep enough to afford the hardware - they know what they are getting into. Atleast what works will work fast and the software will only improve as we move along - which means improved overall experience. Plus it helps with the project funding too.
Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by davidhyde on Monday August 17, 2020 @09:44AM (#24187135)
The iPhone 1.0 came out in 2007 and it ran on a single core arm cpu under clocked at 412mhz and with 120MB of ram and the scrolling was butter smooth. I remember being shocked at how responsive the touch screen was compared to other smartphones at the time. The PinePhone contains an AllWinner A64 Quad Core CPU with 2GB of Ram. Sure, its a crappy 5 year old Soc but it is MUCH faster than the original iphone. I know, modern smartphones have a much higher screen resolution, but still. I mention iPhones instead of android phones because it took quite a few years for Android phones to achieve that same butter smooth experience.

The perceived slowness of the PinePhone is due to layers upon layers of software used to draw simple 2D stuff to the screen. I think a really simple bare metal GUI would be better than running a full blown linux desktop environment like GNOME. Even if you "skin" and strip it down for mobile, it is still laggy as hell.

Linux on a smartphone => yes

Linux desktop environment on a smartphone (even with Wayland support) => no

I am less interested in the "daily driver" part of the PinePhone and more interested in the power consumption and responsiveness of the device itself. Stuff like this is exciting (extending the standby time of a PinePhone to 100 hours): https://github.com/crust-firmware/crust

Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by zatop on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:51AM (#24188370)
During Librem 5 development, they considered using GNOME but, after talking with the upstream devs, they abandoned the idea.

Gnome is slow even on laptops, it was made for X and later ported to Wayland, it uses Clutter/Mutter, JavaScript, etc. So here yes definitively it's layers upon layers.

On the other hand, Posh is based on Wlroots and there is no layers. It's pure C code talking directly to EGL/DRM/KMS (And in the future Vulkan) stack.

Even more interesting, Wlroots allows the use of hardware layers and with that you directly write to the screen and compositing is done in hardware. You can't go more optimised than that.

With this kind of approach you can totally write a convergent, both phone & desktop, environment which is butter smooth on low spec mobile.

But of course then the whole question is which apps you run on that environment, the typical Electron app won't run smoothly (but it wouldn't either on a IPhone 1).

On the other hand, GTK 4 should be GPU accelerated and Qt too so those could run pretty smoothly

Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by cuu508 on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:08PM (#24188549)
> You can't go more optimised than that.

Phosh uses GTK, right? That's a pretty thick layer right there. You used to be able to put pixels on screen with a handful of ASM instructions https://www.cprogramming.com/tutorial/tut8.html

Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by zatop on Monday August 17, 2020 @06:47PM (#24193169)
Yes this is totally true, I should've been more precise.

There are two parts : 'Phoc' and 'Posh'. Phoc is the Wayland compositor (Wlroots & C), Posh is the launcher UI (GTK).

Phosh is just "an app" (with special privileges to talk to Phoc). All it does is display app icons and windows thumbnails (which are not actual live windows but just screenshots of the apps (like on Android)) it does not composite windows, it does not stand between the apps and Phoc.

This is unlike Clutter & JavaScript which do stand between the apps and the Wayland compositor (Mutter) on GNOME.

So my point is that apps on the Librem talk directly to Phoc (not Posh) which is a super minimal layer and can draw pixels on screen with almost no overhead (and potentially none at all when they'll support hardware layers)

(Note : this is the Librem architecture as far as I understood, maybe I missed something)

Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by davidhyde on Monday August 17, 2020 @07:52PM (#24193670)
Very interesting, thanks! I wish there were more videos focusing on UI latency and snappiness for the Librem 5 but all you see are "feature" videos. It's hard to tell if the phone is laggy (finger move to eyeball time) or not.
Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by zatop on Wednesday August 19, 2020 @10:15AM (#24210566)
Once hardware acceleration is enabled it will be very snappy :) : https://social.librem.one/@dos/104218666011152589
Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by joemazerino on Monday August 17, 2020 @04:49PM (#24191889)
Let's not forget how much bigger iOS is now compared to 2007. I doubt it would run smooth on a 128MB device in 2020. Phone companies have to keep up with software's requirements.
Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by david-gpu on Monday August 17, 2020 @05:24PM (#24192335)
> I doubt it would run smooth on a 128MB device in 2020

It would not run at all. No mobile OS has a swap partition as far as I know, and it would not make sense to add one due to performance and power constraints.

Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by tpxl on Monday August 17, 2020 @09:26AM (#24186988)
The problem with linux phones right now is not the price, but the usefulness/software. The UB Ports edition of the phone doesn't have a working camera, and the Mobian can only use one camera at a time, with a script to switch between them. In about a year when these issues are resolved I'm going to recommend them to everyone I know and probably buy them for my family.

As far as high end goes, Librem 5 from Purism has better specs (still a lot worse than high end Androids/iPhones. That's open source firmware for you).

Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by A4ET8a8uTh0 on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:30AM (#24188181)
This. I am fine with Pine hardware. On the surface it should be sufficient. Oddly, my experience with Ubuntu OS is just plain awful. It made me miss Android almost instantly. I genuinely expected more.

The physical switches are nice, but you still need to have some decent functionality to make it a daily driver. Sadly, it is not there yet.

Since we are talking about it, if someone can recommend good alternative to Ubuntu for my UBports edition, that would be awesome.

I am slowly preparing to try other OSs on Pinephone, but since it is not super easy process ( and since you have full access, you can easily brick your phone ), I have thus far spent more time learning about it than just trying to jump on one of the other OSs.

Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by fsflover on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:35AM (#24188225)
You cannot easily brick your phone. You just use dd to write any image to the microSD and the phone just boots from it. Also see here concerning the internal memory: https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=9444

Many people like Mobian. It has a very nice UI (Purism's Phosh) and the full GNU/Linux under the hood.

I personally would recommend to try Sxmo: https://forum.pine64.org/showthread.php?tid=9913. It is unbelievably fast, capable and has a cool geeky UI.

Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by lioeters on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @07:52AM (#24197576)
Sxmo ("Simple X Mobile") looks great.

> Sxmo, or Simple X Mobile, is a collection of simple and suckless X programs and scripts used together to create a fully functional mobile UI adhering to the Unix philosophy for the Pinephone.

https://sr.ht/~mil/Sxmo/

It reminds me of working with text-based user interface in the terminal, with intuitive window manager. I love it!

Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by qchris on Monday August 17, 2020 @12:24PM (#24188717)
Fwiw, I've tried UBports, pmOS, and Mobian on mine, and Mobian is definitely my favorite and the one I'm sticking with for now. And as you've said, installation is just like most other computers/SBCs, by flashing the uSD card.
Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by ben-schaaf on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:39AM (#24188252)
I don't have my pinephone yet, but everyone I've heard of currently recommends Mobian.
Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by tpxl on Monday August 17, 2020 @11:42AM (#24188276)
Mobian seems to be closest to upstream there is, so it should have the best support (assuming stuff gets backported).
Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by RealStickman_ on Tuesday August 18, 2020 @11:18AM (#24199697)
I like Mobian. It's based on Debian and allows you to do the same stuff as on a normal desktop (technically).

That's also the reason why I almost immediately threw UBPorts off my PP UBPorts CE. You can't do anything like you would it in Linux. For example, mounting the SD card automatically on boot with fstab wasn't possible as it always reset itself to default values. The root partition is also read only. No thanks.

For trying other OSs. Just flash them to an SD card and put them in the phone. It'll boot from the SD card before booting from the eMMC.

Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by m463 on Monday August 17, 2020 @09:33PM (#24194405)
> Librem 5 from Purism has better specs (still a lot worse than high end Androids/iPhones...

What I would say from booting linux on apple hardware is: apple has a LOT of fat to cut away.

macos/ios run an enormous number of unnecessary processes, and apps themselves use tremendous resources as well. So a lot of resource use is for business reasons and not technical ones.

Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by COGlory on Monday August 17, 2020 @09:20AM (#24186940)
When this has been brought up about the PinePhone, the answer I've heard is that high spec hardware suitable for the project doesn't exist.
Re:Linux PinePhone has physical kill switches for its camera... by m463 on Monday August 17, 2020 @09:25PM (#24194363)
They could sell them for $399 and nobody would care because open phones are a special thing.

Unless that's not what motivates them. Maybe they want to get them into as many hands as possible to bootstrap a working phone.

They can always raise the price when the software becomes more usable.