News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Joan Feynman has died by ascar on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:04AM (#24130248)
Amazing read. Thank you! Inspiring how her brother encouraged her into sciences after she got completely crushed by her mother.

From the same extract:

\begin{quote}

“Women can’t do science, because their brains aren’t made for it,” Lucille Feynman declared to her eight-year-old daughter Joan. The news was a huge blow to the little girl’s ambitions which, at the time in 1935, were firmly set on following her brother Richard into a life scientific. “I remember sitting in a chair and weeping,” she recalls.

[...]

The path of Joan’s life would be changed significantly one night when Richard woke her up and told her to get dressed and follow him out into the street. He took her away from the house and the street lights and out onto a wide open golf course nearby with a big dark sky above them. “I can still remember in my mind’s eye the green lights dancing in the sky”, Joan recalls of the flickering northern lights Richard had lead her outside to witness. “He told me that it was an aurora and no one knew what caused it exactly.”

In that moment, she was hooked. And whilst the doubts about a woman’s abilities to undertake a career in science, planted in her by Lucille, remained, Joan’s interest in science continued to be fuelled by Richard’s progress through university. Before he’d left home, her brother had made a deal with her that whilst away at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), studying for his bachelor’s degree, he would answer any science question that she sent him.

“For quite a while we had a notebook which went back and forth, and he sent me a problem in maths and I sent the answer,” remembers Joan of that time. Then for her fourteenth birthday, he gave her the book ‘Astronomy’ by Robert Horace Baker. “It was a book people studied at college,” she remembers. “And he’d pasted my name in it. I was so excited.”

Somewhat daunted by the advanced level of the book, Joan wrote to Richard to ask how she should read it. He replied that she should start at the beginning and read until she didn’t understand, and then start at the beginning again. And each time she’d get a little further.

“So I did,” says Joan, “and I got a little further each time. And then one day there was a figure in the book of a spectrum and underneath it said ‘the relative strengths of the Mg+ absorption line at 4,481 angstroms… of Stellar Atmospheres from the work of Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin’.” The caption was a revelation to Joan. Cecilia was a woman’s name, and the hyphenated family name indicated she was married. It was proof that a married woman was capable of doing science.

\end{quote}

I also find this little excerpt about how she encouraged scientific thinking in her children inspiring:

> [...] Joan was determined to instil a sense of curiosity and wonder in her own children.

> Her son Charles remembers one occasion when, at the age of about six, he asked her about her job as a scientist. In response Joan handed him a spoon. “Drop it on the table,” she said. Charles let it fall. “Why did it fall? Why didn’t it float up to the ceiling?” asked Joan. It had never occurred to Charles that there was a whyinvolved. “Because of gravity,” she continued. “A spoon will always fall, a hot-air balloon will always rise.” Charles dropped the spoon again and again until she made him stop. The boy had no idea what gravity was, but the idea of “why?” kept rattling around in his head.

Re:Joan Feynman has died by munificent on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:31PM (#24134495)
> And then one day there was a figure in the book of a spectrum and underneath it said ‘the relative strengths of the Mg+ absorption line at 4,481 angstroms… of Stellar Atmospheres from the work of Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin’.” The caption was a revelation to Joan. Cecilia was a woman’s name, and the hyphenated family name indicated she was married. It was proof that a married woman was capable of doing science.

This is a great example of what people mean when they say "representation matters". Humans benefit greatly from existence proofs that people similar themselves are capable of doing X.

Re:Joan Feynman has died by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @04:44PM (#24136740)
Is that true in general or only when people have been lied to by their mothers in a demonstrably erroneous way?

People often say that others, usually children, require physical similarity (sex, skin colour) to be inspired. This I find very sad and highly contradictory to my own schooling.

I mean all people are broadly similar. Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin has been inspirational to me too, but we have little in common physically or socially.

Of course if a I'm wrong people should be up in arms about primary schools not having teachers representative of the broader population - success can be predicted at that point with a high degree of certainty, I gather.

Re:Joan Feynman has died by munificent on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:51PM (#24138481)
> Is that true in general or only when people have been lied to by their mothers in a demonstrably erroneous way?

Mothers are only one potential source of erroneous beliefs about one's inability to achieve something based on some personal characteristic. Surely, we should strive to prevent people from spreading these erroneous beliefs. But existence proofs to the contrary are a very effective, scalable counter-measure. We cannot entirely eradicate ignorance, but we can provide innoculations to prevent others from being harmed by it.

> People often say that others, usually children, require physical similarity (sex, skin colour) to be inspired.

Representation is not always about physical similarity. It is equally important (often more) for intangible characteristics like class, sexual orientation, religion, wealth, etc.

> This I find very sad and highly contradictory to my own schooling.

I find it sad too, but reality is that people are different and our experiences are different. These differences are precisely what makes each individual's contributions to society unique and valuable. But those differences are also a source of perceived limitations.

We are primates and learn by mirroring. If you never see a member of your tribe swim across the river, there's probably a good reason (maybe crocodiles) even if you don't see it (they hide under the surface). So we naturally, wisely avoid behaviors that we don't see people like us engaging in.

This is true even when we define our own tribe based on less tangible attributes.

> Of course if a I'm wrong people should be up in arms about primary schools not having teachers representative of the broader population

That only matters to the degree that kids aspire to be teachers. And, fortunately, the average kid gets enough different teachers and there is enough diversity among them that each kid will likely have a teacher at some point that they identify with.

A single existence proof is sufficient to open the door.

Re:Joan Feynman has died by Baeocystin on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:08PM (#24137606)
It certainly wasn't true for me. I'm a westerner who spent my childhood in undeveloped parts of southeast asia. If I didn't learn to apply the all-asian-cast stories I heard and read to my own life, I'm sure I would have felt very put out. But, that never happened (and never even crossed my mind as a problem to have) because both my parents always emphasized the universality of the human experience.
Re:Joan Feynman has died by telesilla on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:05PM (#24137577)
We don't know for sure so does it hurt to make the world a little more representational? I would doubt it has any harm, unlike the alternative.

Yes, teachers talk a lot about the lack of diversity too. If you spend a little time with some of them you'll find out. The teachers I know around the world genuinely want the best for their kids.

Re:Joan Feynman has died by selimthegrim on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:01PM (#24139559)
Payne-Gaposchkin was given an extremely raw deal by Otto Struve at Chicago. I would say she got screwed over more than Henrietta Swan-Leavitt or Rosalind Franklin (but not Jocelyn Bell-Burnell)
Re:Joan Feynman has died by darkwater on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:39AM (#24130970)
About this

> I also find this little excerpt about how she encouraged scientific thinking in her children inspiring:

I have an almost 5yo daughter that since she was barely 2 started asked "why?" about almost anything. I promised myself that I would never leave a question unanswered, to not hinder/limit her natural curiosity. Let's see how this will turn out!

Re:Joan Feynman has died by pbhjpbhj on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @04:50PM (#24136815)
I'd had the pleasure of answering kids in the 'why' stage before having kids of my own. And resolved to face my own kids with answers whenever I could.

I'm not sure it has been successful, they never really exhausted my ability to answer but I fear it may have sucked out some of the magic - not having answers might be 'better' to some extent if your aim is to foster curiosity and personal goal fulfillment.

My kids are awesome and definitely have some intrigue; but perhaps endeavour to not provide answers!

Re:Joan Feynman has died by rcollyer on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:27AM (#24131840)
My eldest in some ways skipped the "why" stage. "How" was a much more important question to him. Although, he did ask his mother once why the sun was on fire, but she passed him off to me on. Because his questions were often complex, and outside of my expertise, I would often say, "I don't know", usually followed by, "we can look it up, though".
Re:Joan Feynman has died by sukilot on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:52AM (#24132586)
One of the key lessons of physical science is that "why" is the same as "how". "Why" is a psychological layer, how we thinking about "how". There is no "why" in physics.
Re:Joan Feynman has died by tobrien6 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:09AM (#24132808)
That's quite true in physical science. However, physical science is a fairly new endeavor. The "why" may not be entirely psychological, but mathematical, at the end of the day.
Re:Joan Feynman has died by rickdangerous1 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:48AM (#24131037)
Have you seen the Louis CK bit about that? The relevant bit starts about 7 minutes in. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IR8Um_vZ3oM
Re:Joan Feynman has died by silviot on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @01:22PM (#24134376)
I thought you were linking this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dp9atyHwQF8

Both bits are quite nice.

Re:Joan Feynman has died by marai2 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:58AM (#24133349)
For my own son at a certain point I stumbled upon the strategy of not providing him with real answers (most probably because I myself didn't know the answers) but instead sharing in his curiosity with him and saying things like "wow that's interesting, I've never thought about that. Maybe this happens because of X, or Y. Do you think it could be because of Z?" Like Joan quoted above - at some point in their age providing answers takes the fun out of things for them. Or rather closes their curiosity and inclination to further think about the question. I feel now my job is to encourage them to not limit themselves and develop more independence in thinking about things themselves.
Re:Joan Feynman has died by vanderZwan on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:49AM (#24131051)
The crucial difference is whether you try to answer all questions, or whether you discuss and reason about possible answers together.
Re:Joan Feynman has died by darkwater on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:37AM (#24131417)
This was not easy (reason with a 2-3yo) but it's starting to become easier as time passes by.
Re:Joan Feynman has died by kkylin on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:44PM (#24135983)
Ditto! I also try to never tell the kids "don't ask that question." Though very often I do need to answer with "I don't know, but let's find out if anyone does," then research it later. And occasionally, as recently happened when the question was about the Vietnam war: "that is a very long and complicated story, give me some time to figure out a way to explain a little bit of it."
Re:Joan Feynman has died by CarbyAu on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:17PM (#24139631)
My kid has just turned two. He hasn't started with "Why" yet, but I am excited for it.

I love the idea of coming up with endless possibilities, labeling realistic ones and why (important) but enjoying the flights of fancy for what they are too!

"Why yes kiddo, I would love to ride a Rainbow-unicornDragon-with-tentacles to work!"....

Re:Joan Feynman has died by simonebrunozzi on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:36AM (#24132426)
Thanks for doing this. The world will thank you now and later. And I'd bet she will turn out to be an amazing person.
Re:Joan Feynman has died by sukilot on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @10:54AM (#24132623)
I bet she already is.
Re:Joan Feynman has died by Uhhrrr on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:13PM (#24138178)
It is also fun to reply, "Why do you think?" I got this idea from someone who was (momentarily) tired of answering their kids, but I think it's good because a) it helps them reason things from principles b) you sometimes get really neat or at least amusing answers.
Re:Joan Feynman has died by randomsearch on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @07:51AM (#24131060)
This is a common trait, I was the same, I call kids like this “why birds” after a BBC character.
Re:Joan Feynman has died by solarengineer on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @08:45AM (#24131464)
I repeated this spoon drop experiment just now and thought about it a bit. I'm astounded by the concept of gravity, and even more so that it "weakens" as we move away from the Earth took we get to zero gravity. I've got thinking about whether I'd get captured by the Sun's gravity - after all the Earth is hurtling around the Sun - until another planet were to come by, or by chance miss getting caught in any planet's gravity and drop out of the Solar system altogether. I also just wondered what causes gravity, whether it is possible to determine and conclude that there must be no gravity at a particular point away from the Earth - all while being seated at my chair.

Sorry, this isn't directly related to the overall discussion but I got so excited by my thoughts that I wanted to share.

Re:Joan Feynman has died by greyhair on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:58AM (#24132116)
And the wild part is, it never actually gets completely to zero, though it gets really close! And then read about lagrangian points. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrangian_point

So much fun.

Re:Joan Feynman has died by ianmcgowan on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:54AM (#24133304)
There's a relevant quote from the book Anathem about that, but can't find it. Something about sequestering a bunch of monk-scientists with no particle accelerators or other tools, but they still figure out the nature of ultimate reality...
Re:Joan Feynman has died by tima101 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:34AM (#24131918)
> Richard woke her up and told her to get dressed and follow him out into the street.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb6vDACwxWU

Longer version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tD_XAX--Ono

Re:Joan Feynman has died by throwaw4y-plate on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @09:40AM (#24131969)
>Charles dropped the spoon again and again until she made him stop

Kids are natural scientists, heh.