Couple of things that might be helpful:

1. Ask them what the compensation is for the role earlier in the interview process. If you are feeling bold/pushy yourself you can start by asking them to explain their compensation model for finding a candidate and discuss whether or not they are working for candidates or the company. (This gets recruiters on edge making them less likely to look for firm numbers from you)

2. Start by asking about what they offer in non-salary compensation, and be as detailed as possible. There are big differences in equity, health care coverage, 401K match, etc... work your way up to salary.

3. Use your current compensation (TC) to stress that you want a reasonable percentage increase... TC should include estimates for how much your health insurance costs, bonus, perks at work, severance (conferences, food/ beverage, company functions, etc).

4. Use the stack overflow developer survey to figure out roughly what your comp should be. Focus on getting to the high end of the salary range. If you good they should have to "think about it"

Also going to throw this out there... dumb companies worry about how much someone will cost, smart companies worry about the value that someone will bring. So if you keep on running into this you should probably look at different companies.

Strongly agree with 2 and 3. If you can phrase it in total compensation, then you can throw them off the single salary number because now there are multiple variables in play and you can more easily provide reasoning behind your positions on salary, vacation days, etc.

Very insightful, thank you!

I do (say) two things, whether it's a third party, HR recruiter, or interviewing person:

1. "It's too early in the process for me to discuss compensation. If we both decide it's a good fit, then I'm sure we can work out reasonable compensation."

2. If they press, I reiterate. Sometimes repeatedly. Sometimes I ask "is salary expectation one of the criteria you use to decide who you'd like to work with?" If the answer is 'yes', then I politely decline to continue.

Sometimes, they'll say "We have to know your salary expectations to continue". That's a big red flag for me, and I decline there, too.

Last: If they're snippy about it, I sometimes ask "What's your budget for the position?". I've never had someone actually tell me.

Fundamentally, it's a negotiation, and the other party is trying to get information to leverage in the negotiation. Don't give it to them. Keep your power.

I don't fully agree with this. (I am an inhouse recruiter). When salary is discussed before an actual offer, it's to make sure the candidate and the company are in the same ballpark. I never ask for a precise number, and im happy the share the likely range that my employer pays for position X. It's just such a waste of time if at offer stage we find out we can afford you.

I've heard this exact response in interviews--we want to know if we're 'in the ballpark' so we don't 'waste time', which is another way of saying either 'this is our budget' or ' we don't want to pay more than this'. Everything I said still applies to how I'd respond.

I open with my base price, which is several times what most firms plan on offering.

"Hi, thanks for reaching out. I'm very happy where I currently am. Lemme know if you can beat ${2X FAANG Total Comp), 5 wks vacation, and fully WFH (before COVID was a thing), with a great collaborative culture dealing with scaling highly available systems. Cheers!"

Usually, the response is, "wow, great gig. We will circle back at a later time."

I honestly just tell them what I want which is at least 10K above what I make now or it's not worth it. And if they ask what I make now I just point out it's not worth leaving for something lateral.

“I’m looking for $X with Y vacation days. If you can get me to that, I’ll sign today.”

That phrasing works really well with internal recruiters.

I agree. Seriously, don’t overthink it. Just come out and say what salary you are looking for and that’s that.

If you say you're willing to accept an offer at 50K less than they had budgeted for, you just lost 50K.

For the right team and product I’m willing to give up $50k. I hate the incompetence associated with the software industry so much that I am happily working a temp job in management in a different industry on the other side of the world. The only thing stressful about this is knowing it’s temporary and when the party is over I have to go back to the corporate software job. I am considering doing absolutely anything else for half pay and letting the wife figure out how to make up the difference.

Are you me?

If things go that way, the headhunter lost their cut of that 50K. Instead, a good headhunter should have some idea of what the company is willing to pay.

For me, I find things usually go the other way. I could spend a lot of time working through the process, only to find out that I'm too expensive for the company. I don't need the frustration of working through the process at several companies just to find out that none of them will pay me.

I'm not a rock star. If they want to pay 50k over market they're expecting something in return. probably me not seeing my kids.

I think that’s highly unlikely to happen.

I did a lot of interviewing and speaking with recruiters last year. I imagine that 2020 is significantly different than 2019, so take this comment with a grain of salt.

In my personal experience, recruiters that asked this did not have a serious potential for a new job. That's because recruiters are either 'retained' or the equivalent of bounty hunters. The latter are the kind that have the least information/contact with the hiring manager and are just trying to get the most number of applicants. It's a hustle, and it should be shamed within industry.

One should ask if they're retained first, in the initial reply (they may lie, such as all the recruiters I spoke to for a role at Qualcomm). If they aren't, the conversation is likely fruitless, because their incentive is to get your resume to the hiring manager (who they have not spoken to) and not to fill the position. This means they have very little information about the job or team or its potential compensation.

To contrast this, some recruiters are plugged into the team and trying to actually fill a role that the hiring manager is too busy to take a part in the search. These folks are great, they usually are extremely insightful and up front about the compensation if you ask.

And more importantly, don't tell someone what you're currently being paid - ever. It's illegal for a company to ask in California, and should be illegal everywhere. If its a required field on the form, put the market value + 15% or something like that.

If they're asking for my current salary, I've considered saying that it's not a relevant number. The numbers that are relevant is what it would take for me to take the job, and what the job is willing to pay.

I wonder, though, if the recruiters are asking because they've lost their feel for the market. Maybe they're trying to find out what realistic salaries are so that they know what to get for the people they're placing.

I say, is your compensation inline with a FAANG engineer? They know what compensation I'm talking about. It usually ends the conversation

I find there's four monthly salary numbers in my city: 2500 for junior, 4000 for not junior, 10000 for a senior, 20000 for a 10x.

As soon as you ask for something in the higher tier, the expectations change. If desperate for a job, you can ask for a lower tier, something like 3800 or 9400. The higher your tier, the more people have to approve the salary, the more complex the process is, and the higher their expectations before they fire you. I got my current job asking for a lower tier, and they hired me 12 hours after the interview.

Benefits are much more complex but usually non-negotiable with recruiters. Whatever benefits is usually not worth the salary change. I normally care about things like no open office over insurance, or having a good keyboard and work chair over gym plans. I've seen drastic changes like $2000 salary drop in exchange for $50 in parking benefits, so they're usually not worth bothering with.

Typically I give them a large range. Something large enough that is meaningless for pinpointing, but provides a sane bounds for my living expenses. I think for my current job I gave them a 40K difference (from low to high). I then tell them that the income is significantly dependent on the type of work and my working environment and benifits. I tell them that I would need to know more about the working environment, and I tell them an example or two of an income that I have made and the corresponding environment

Sometimes recruiters counter offer with a more narrow range. Sometimes they respond by saying we have positions in that range. If they ask me to become more narrow immediately, I respond that is a function of the interview process

For offline job I always take a break to do a detailed research about local market, median/max salary, cost of living. Here I often withdraw my candidature due to unsatisfactory Software Engineers compensation in the region. If I decide to proceed, I put myself in highest 20% of distribution. For online it's much easier, I use rates of top Upwork contractors and Toptal (which are already top) and ready to negotiate 10-15% as usually it's fulltime

Don’t give them a number. Instead reflect the question back at them by asking for the range for the role. Giving up any information at this point loses you leverage and gives them something to anchor on even if it is much higher than your expectations.

PS. I’m one of the founders of http://levels.fyi and we help folks out with this quite a bit

Figure the highest number you can get paid for the job.

Add 10-15%

You may add word "negotiable"

If recruiter insists on knowing your current slary - lie with ~above number. It's not their business knowing.

Also:

Recruiter is never your friend (even is he is presenting himself this way). Everything you tell him, may and will be used by him to increase possibility of him getting commissions. Your career and compensation level is his lowest priority.

> Your career and compensation level is his lowest priority.

What one recruiter (a good friend) told me is that I should just put a high number, because he charges commission based on the salary offered.

Also negotiable means they have to negotiate. Expect it to be 10% lower than the offered number. I've had someone negotiate as far as 33% when the offer was already very low but that kind of low balling destroys trust.

I always say 2x of my target salary, and later add a note that I could accept a 50% pay cut. You'd be surprised how often it works.

I honestly have no patience for this dance. I just throw a number I would be very comfortable with and if it is too high then that's OK. If I left something on the table then that's also OK because I am comfortable with.

"I'm looking for the right fit in a career and am open to many different compensation options".

and then after three or so more iterations of that:

"I appreciate your persistence but there's truly no single thing, including salary, that would convince me to accept or pass on an offer"

but.. what if they lowball in the end? isn't that a reason to give up your expected salary?

IMHO I'd rather have the interview and negotiation experience than the time back. Practice makes perfect.

Yea but what about 2-3 years down the line? You've basically set the baseline at which the recruiter will start from. Your next jump will be just maybe +5k instead of +20k since they know how much you made.

Mine is public record. If someone asks they are probably not local and I can ignore them since I am not interested in moving right now.

I ask the range, and if they don't want to give one, I ask for an unusually high but still realistic rate.

I tell them what I'm making now, which is my current salary + whatever I wanna earn more.

I ask them for theirs.

Hahaha ... has that ever worked?

Look up what people are getting at levels.fyi or blind app and reply with those numbers.

Issue with this is that the data science/tech market is only a fraction of available companies with roles.