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Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by bo1024 on Monday August 10, 2020 @09:31AM (#24109005)
This reply comes from completely internalizing the perspective the above post describes. It only makes sense if you accept that the employer is supposed to completely care for their employees. But if you view it as society’s job, then everything changes. For one thing, small mom n pop stores can compete with Walmart a lot easier if healthcare is provided by the state. Also employees can quit if they’re not treated well, etc.
Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by griffinkelly on Monday August 10, 2020 @10:15AM (#24109480)
From a startup perspective, I've always thought it interesting that more people in Europe/rest of the world don't take chances to create companies because of the great safety net there--at least its not as highly publicized. For whatever reason, the US is still the place to be and everyone wants to come to the US to start a company--my current company included (We have Canadian founders).

I quit my job and thanks to the insurance changes in the US a few years ago, I was able to stay on my parents health insurance for a meaningful amount of time. It allowed me to take the chance of starting my own company. Unsure if I would have done the same, had circumstances been different.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by fractionalhare on Monday August 10, 2020 @11:38AM (#24110431)
Others are responding in a way that explains your premise, but I actually reject the premise. Specifically, I do not think this is true:

> From a startup perspective, I've always thought it interesting that more people in Europe/rest of the world don't take chances to create companies because of the great safety net there -- at least its not as highly publicized.

There are a lot of startups in Europe; particularly France, UK, Germany, Switzerland and Scandanavia, and they are well publicized locally. I hypothesize they don't get surfaced to the attention of Americans for a few reasons:

1. Essentially no country in Europe provides businesses with as many freedoms as America does. American businesses have more autonomy, and a lot of basic facts about American life primarily exist within the framework of a business (e.g. healthcare). This makes it a less attractive environment for investors, so these startups don't get international attention as easily.

2. Partly as a result of #1, and also because of a reduced cost of living (and thereby labor) in much of Europe, startups in Europe typically don't pay as well as those in America.

This is to say that Europe has lots of entrepreneurialism, it just exists in a less recognizable way compred to America due to cultural, political and economic differences.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by jcranmer on Monday August 10, 2020 @02:32PM (#24112463)
There's another factor worth mentioning:

Europe provides a better social net, and this is funded in larger part by heavier taxes on companies. To encourage entrepreneurship, small companies are exempted from many taxes and regulations, which causes there to be a more prominent cliff as a company grows from small to large.

This is perhaps most noticeable in France, where a lot of stuff kicks in with your 50th employee, and so there are a great deal more companies with 49 employees than 50 employees.

I think a consequence of this is that European entrepreneurs tend not to result in as many large companies as American entrepreneurs, as you'll have more people who stop at a smaller size to avoid the penalties of being large.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by whywhywhywhy on Monday August 10, 2020 @11:01AM (#24109980)
It’s only a safety net to you. If you have free healthcare your entire life you don’t think of it as a safety net it’s just something you expect.

And the sort of worries Americans have about healthcare stopping you from starting a business we just move those worries elsewhere to rent or whatever.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by Aunche on Monday August 10, 2020 @10:43AM (#24109770)
Europe probably has about as many startups as the US if not more. There certainly seem to be a lot more independent contractor software engineers.

The bottleneck to highly publicized startups is investors. Investors are less likely to let people use their money if they think the government will get in the way of their growth.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by pbiggar on Monday August 10, 2020 @10:35AM (#24109689)
Startups are in the US because of a long chain of decisions and network effects that ultimately come from US military spending in the 60s.

> I quit my job and thanks to the insurance changes in the US a few years ago

So you're saying that you were able to take the chance to build a startup because of the safety net?

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by griffinkelly on Monday August 10, 2020 @11:45AM (#24110508)
Yeah, had President Obama not made that change and extended health insurance to 26, I would have thought harder about quitting my job.
Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by refurb on Monday August 10, 2020 @12:13PM (#24110810)
Sure, a safety net paid for by employers, not the gov’t.
Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by pbiggar on Monday August 10, 2020 @12:57PM (#24111388)
Once you agree a safety net is a net positive, then it comes down to implementation.

In this case, the employer is the parent's employer. Which means that the people who can take the risk to create startups is limited to "people whose parents have health insurance". Which excludes a large section of society, including for example poor people.

(also--and this might be a bit of a jump for someone just learning about inequality of opportunity--but a fun thing to research online is "why is the US the only country with employer-based health insurance", especially once you discover the answer is "slavery")!

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by erik_seaberg on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:01PM (#24114534)
During World War II, the US government imposed price controls to prevent the market from reflecting the reality of shortages. Employers started competing by offering health insurance because they were barred from raising wages.
Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by pbiggar on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:10PM (#24114615)
Thanks for the correction!

I actually confused my facts here - it's tipping I was thinking of that comes directly from slavery. Employer-paid health care just _continues_ because of racism, as opposed to being created by it.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by specialist on Monday August 10, 2020 @02:43PM (#24112573)
USA might be better for startups than else where (I have no idea), but it's definitely gotten objectively worse since the 70s, measured by number of companies started every year, number of publicly traded companies, and so forth.

IMHO, universal healthcare and childcare would indirectly lead to a lot of new startups.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by novok on Monday August 10, 2020 @01:44PM (#24111912)
It's easier to bootstrap in Europe, it's harder to go further than that because of much higher regulatory barriers (ex: need to implement GDPR from day one) and a lack of investment dollars relatively. Also since it's more comfortable, european startups looks more like Radical Fish Games (from germany) or Bear (from Italy) than they do like Spotify or Nokia.
Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by michaelmrose on Monday August 10, 2020 @01:05PM (#24111496)
In a truly free market with no government fingers on the scale no worker would ever work for less than is required to live or at least they wouldn't work for long at such a wage.

People factor in the assistance they expect to receive when taking a job in terms of food, healthcare, and money when they take a job that will with assistance provide them the means to live. It is not unheard of at some low paying employers to guide new employees to benefit programs to help them meet their needs.

In effect such programs reduce the market clearing price for labor at the expense of other tax payers. Such program often require that the recipients work but not for how much. At the limit sufficiently generous benefits could inspire someone to work for $1 per year and you could subsidize taco bells entire workforce but the minimum wage and the limits of federal dollars both prevent this.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by colinmhayes on Monday August 10, 2020 @01:59PM (#24112078)
>In a truly free market with no government fingers on the scale no worker would ever work for less than is required to live

Absolutely false. People will always work at the highest wage they can obtain unless they value their time above what that wage. No government assistance leads to even more people working for $1/hr because they're even more desperate.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by michaelmrose on Monday August 10, 2020 @02:30PM (#24112447)
And employers will pay the least that they can pay and get people in the door. The least they can possibly pay is lessor if government benefits can be used to make up the difference.

Government benefits lower the floor so low that people literally couldn't live if they were paid solely in wages rather than wages + benefits.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by colinmhayes on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:07PM (#24112854)
Walmart pays enough to survive without government benefits, it's just a terrible life. If an employee dies because they don't have healthcare Walmart would hire someone else.
Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by michaelmrose on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:06PM (#24113434)
With no government benefits there would be vastly more pressure to unionize and demand better wages or just ask for more on the front end and select the employer willing to pay more.
Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by the_gastropod on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:09PM (#24113458)
With all due respect, this is obviously not true. The U.S. used to literally have slave labor. Then it had child labor, uncapped workweek lengths, no safety regulations, no minimum wage, etc. The workers who died in the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory, for example, earned the equivalent of today's $3.67/hour working 52 hours per week thanks to there being "no government fingers on the scale".

I know that libertarian types like to pretend government regulations just appeared into reality suddenly, without anything provoking them. But the reality is, most government regulations were put in place to save people from unsafe conditions that the free market exploited.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by CarbyAu on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @12:51AM (#24117275)
I see Uber (and Uber-likes) as repeating this ugly history but using different organisational/communication patterns to avoid regulation.
Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by jschwartzi on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:06PM (#24115196)
Regulation is written in blood.
Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by specialist on Monday August 10, 2020 @02:48PM (#24112636)
Faith in Freedom Markets™, in this case employer / employee relations, are rooted in a few easily dismissed misconceptions:

- markets are efficient

- people are rational

- everyone has perfect information

- there are no power imbalances

Aside: Do you play poker? I've started to wonder if Freedom Markets™ advocates are familiar with that kind of meta thinking.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by andrepd on Monday August 10, 2020 @01:34PM (#24111804)
>In a truly free market with no government fingers on the scale no worker would ever work for less than is required to live or at least they wouldn't work for long at such a wage.

I don't know how you're even supposed to go from such a premise that is demonstrably, empirically false.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by michaelmrose on Monday August 10, 2020 @02:33PM (#24112469)
If you don't make enough to have a place to live, medicine, and food you die or at least your life falls apart. How is that false. Some people make so little money they would at that wage not be able to sustain life. These people sustain themselves via government benefits in addition to wages.
Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by renewiltord on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:49PM (#24113277)
Well, the real truth is that we're all able to survive on very low wages. If your options are shit job that delays death 10 years or die now, you take the shit job.

Bare survival is very cheap in America.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by michaelmrose on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:55PM (#24113340)
Its really not. Medical care and insurance is very very expensive. Rent that is actually near somewhere you can work is very expensive. Cars are expensive. Keeping a beater running can be more expensive than making car payments on a cheapish car.

There are niches wherein some can survive on little because they can rent a room or stay with family, because they don't have medical issues and can go without insurance etc etc. These are situational factors that don't scale to a whole society or even the whole of an individuals life.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by banannaise on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @12:01PM (#24121846)
All of these things are "luxuries" in the US.

The poor often go largely without healthcare. Their health deteriorates severely, but it's better than just starving to death. A lot of people have very long bus commutes to work because they can't afford a car or housing close to their workplace or to the best public transportation. Their credit score is probably no good, so they can't get a loan on a "cheapish" car. So if they do get a car, they're stuck maintaining a beater.

They may not have living parents who can help them, or their parents may be just as poor as they are.

Your assumptions are all based on a middle-class individual from middle-class upbringing. That doesn't make any sense when we're talking about the plight of the poor, who are the ones most affected by government assistance, minimum wage, etc.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by renewiltord on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:12PM (#24113487)
That's definitely beyond survival. Survival is just living. I think I could survive on about $10 a day in America in the right place, i.e. I could do that indefinitely and live into my 50s.

Indoor shelter isn't necessary for survival. Motor vehicles aren't essential for survival. And you go to the ER and get emergency care if you're in trouble.

The base line for survival is pretty low. It's just "continue to not be dead".

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by michaelmrose on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:01PM (#24115147)
I think you are stretching the argument beyond reasoning. Nobody would show up to walmart in between shitting in the street and sleeping in a tent and trying to live and remain healthy on food that doesn't require a fridge while hoping that nobody stole even those final earthly possessions while I was working. At some point where the bottom 25-30% are living like this people either organize and force change or collectively burn shit down and kill the rich.
Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by renewiltord on Monday August 10, 2020 @09:12PM (#24116209)
You'd think that, but my experience living in the Third World is that people will accept a lot. i.e. the market clearing price can definitely drop below what you think is the minimum wage for a decent living.

All of this is just to say that, empirically, I have seen the following to not be true in the sense that you mean it (required to live being short for "required to live a decent standard of living"), though it is true in the literal sense that I described it:

> In a truly free market with no government fingers on the scale no worker would ever work for less than is required to live or at least they wouldn't work for long at such a wage.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by hrktb on Monday August 10, 2020 @10:35AM (#24109688)
> if you view it as society’s job

It makes sense with a system like a universal basic income.

Where we stand now, society is expecting everyone being supported by one or more (self)employed jobs, so underpaying people is unacceptable.

I'd argue a change like UBI should come first before lifting the need for companies to pay their employees better.

Re:CEO of Uber: Gig Workers Deserve Better by briandear on Monday August 10, 2020 @02:15PM (#24112270)
If healthcare was provided by the state, Mom and Pop stores wouldn’t be able to easily afford to operate. In France, it’s extremely expensive for small businesses to hire workers and the advantages go to the large companies who can afford to pay those “social charges.” If you pay a worker €20,000 in France, it costs the employer €40,000 for that worker. Then the €20,000 wage is also taxed at a high percentage. The result is. That France has very low per capita disposable income than does the US. Anytime government “runs” something, there is a non-trivial deadweight loss incurred. We need to find ways to increase efficiency, not hamper it.