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Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:34AM (#24107624)
I am also a Nigerian (from a different ethnicity from the author, which does influence my perspective). I've seen this discussion about "the good sides of colonialism" over and over again, and I've come to the conclusion that people keep tiptoeing around a simple truth: colonisation was wholly unnecessary, and that is what makes it unethical no matter how much good one tries to link to it.

As a less morally fraught example, consider the reaction you would have if it was exposed that your browser was secretly sending your passwords in plaintext to some third-party service to check if they were secure enough. It doesn't matter that helping users avoid weak passwords is a noble goal and genuine objective; sharing users' passwords like that is completely unnecessary and thus indefensible.

The question then becomes: was there a better way to achieve the "good" of the colonial era - technological progress, etc - without colonisation itself? And the answer is yes, absolutely 100% yes. Colonisation was a betrayal, not the start of Europe's history with Africa and Asia. To give an example close to home, the Portuguese and later the English had a fairly balanced mercantile relationship with the Benin Kingdom (part of modern-day Nigeria) for centuries before the British colonial expeditions of the very late 19th century. You can even tell from the words of earlier visitors/tourists like Olfert Dapper that there was a respect for the people, their way of life and accomplishments (the Edo people were quite good at architecture, for instance).

The Benin Kingdom could very well have continued its natural technological, economic and social progression with the support of non-violent foreign partnerships and trade while retaining its sovereignty, but for the greed of the British. In fact, colonisation has most likely hampered its development, not accelerated it. Japan for example avoided colonisation entirely and has quite clearly caught up to and surpassed its near and distant neighbours that got that dubious "help". Or consider how quickly Hawaii modernised even before it lost its sovereignty to the United States.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by Latty on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:42AM (#24107668)
I think this is a very good way to frame it. I really dislike the "silver lining" narrative that seems to be common, because—as you say—it doesn't matter, the core thing is still indefensible.

I'm British, and my education (up to GCSE History as it existed in 2007, I didn't take History at AS-level or above) just completely glossed over colonialism entirely. There was no “anti-colonialist message” because there was no message on colonialism at all.

I feel that the desire is more to sweep it under the rug, and while it is better than glorifying the past, I think it encourages people to this kind of mindset, as if it was that bad, surely they'd know more? (Parallels to Americans finding out about the Tulsa race massacre recently).

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by JabavuAdams on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:25PM (#24113033)
The lack of coverage of colonialism in the British curriculum is really surprising to me.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by Joker_vD on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @10:04AM (#24120344)
I for one think that turning Tower into a British Colonialism's Crimes Museum and making the UK repent (and repay! All your City banks are belong to us) for the crimes of their distant ancestors for the next century or so is a fascinating idea, but that'd require, ah, quite a vigorous persuasion, so to speak.

i propose we start by drafting a "Comprehensive International Plan of Action" ("Comintern" for short) and invite the UNSC to join it.

P.S. There's a grain of joke in every joke.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by steve_adams_86 on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @02:32AM (#24117710)
It was much the same in western Canada 15 years ago for me. Learning the truth after school was genuinely difficult; it didn’t seem real at first. Even the colonization of western Canada had somehow been portrayed to me as positive all my life.

The First Nations here were subjected to overt genocide and then protracted, relentless cultural erosion in the form of systemic racism, resource/opportunity control, and the notorious residential school system. Somehow I made it into my late teens before finding out what really happened.

My kids are having a better experience, but I’ll have to wait until grade 7 or 8 to see how deep our education system is willing to dig into the atrocities that happened here. So far, at least, the school has been very positive and engaged in learning about and experiencing local First Nations culture. It’s an improvement.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by thu2111 on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @11:55AM (#24121752)
The history curriculum in the UK is really all kinds of useless. It's not that it overlooks the Empire. When I was at high school it had nothing to say on anything international at all beyond World War 1 and 2. You could graduate high school having no idea whatsoever about the forces that shaped the 20th century. Stalin? Mao? JFK? The Apollo Programme? The Great Depression? None of it was mentioned.

I had history classes for years but the only stuff I remember is trivia about the industrial revolution. We were made to memorise vast quantities of detail on things like the exact dates of various Mines Acts (safety for coal miners), who invented some kinds of obsolete farming equipment, etc. There was a lot on medieval agricultural practices as well. It went far too deep on things that impart no wisdom or generalised lessons for the modern world.

There was also a lot of stuff on World War 1 and World War 2. Important, yes, but also incredibly well covered by popular culture.

I suspect the curriculum was designed to be as boring and non-controversial as possible, which is a pity. The only reason to study history is to learn lessons from it, which must inevitably mean drawing conclusions from the events of the past. Attempting to avoid that ends up reducing history to a list of kings and dates.

If I could rewrite the history curriculum, I'd give it a major renewed focus on both the British Empire and also the full history of the 20th century. It would be shallow but broad. And it would include the chaotic state of Britain between 1945 and 1990. Of course the reason it's not taught is that many teachers have very strong ideological views of their own on, in particular, Margaret Thatcher.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by mhh__ on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @02:09PM (#24123618)
The point of history in schools is to teach doing history rather than memorising information about the past.

Colonialism probably should be one of the topics of the few but we can't teach students everything

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by Latty on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @04:27PM (#24125580)
This is true, but my experience was they taught us barely anything (basically just the world wars), and what they did teach us was just memorising information about the past.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by kls on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @10:45AM (#24120771)
You being British, I do have a question for you on this, do you view the Roman occupation of Britannia as an entirely bad thing? I ask because I think we tend to add emotion to more current events and look at event further away with the lens of history. I think many times we look at closer to current events with a filter of emotion and culture. I personally think Europe as a whole gained a lot from Roman occupation, while I don't look at it in it's entirety as a good thing, some good did come of it, and it did server to advance civilization in Western Europe. I don't think people within 200 years of that occupation saw it, in the same historical framing.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by clappski on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @11:10AM (#24121101)
As someone else from the UK, we're so far removed from anything that the Romans did that I doubt anyone has an emotional response to it (as you point out). I wouldn't even consider it correct to say that we're ethnically or culturally the same people as those who were subjugated under the Roman empire considering the subsequent Anglo-Saxon and Norman conquests!

In fact, it's hard for me to name something explicitly that the Romans did in Britain other than lay the foundations for some towns and cities, and built some roads. All of this was over 1000 years ago, so I doubt (other than the exceptions that I can think of on the spot; some roads, towns and 'Roman Baths') that anyone from the UK is walking around and interpreting what they see as a result of Roman occupation.

On an objective level as someone who obviously never experienced true Roman Britain, sure, they built some things that were pretty cool at the time, but at the same time you can objectively look back and say "yeah, slavery is really bad, I wish the Romans didn't enslave people and use that slave labour to build the things that they did". I think the real layman answer is "who cares, it was over 1000 years ago, and I don't really understand how the people of the time relate to the world/culture I take part in".

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by jrhurst on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @11:18AM (#24121196)
Closer to two thousand years ago. That's how far removed it is.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by slothtrop on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:36PM (#24114903)
Colonialism is just an extension of what was always occurring throughout History. It was no more necessary than all those conquests that shaped the world, which is another way of saying, it's no more necessary than civilization itself, the foundations for which were laid to build armies to wage war and reap the benefits.

You could no more divorce the History of technology from barbarism and inhumanity than you could Civilization. You could project a better way over human history looking through present-day lens, but that way did not happen, and more than likely it would never have occurred the way we'd idealize. Revisionism is hardly necessary.

Moralizing the past is senseless, whether you argue it was good or bad. It matters not that the colonial era is less old than others. All we can do with our newly calibrated compasses is decide what good means going forward.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by claudeganon on Monday August 10, 2020 @08:40PM (#24115986)
> it's no more necessary than civilization itself, the foundations for which were laid to build armies to wage war and reap the benefits.

Civilization emerged around settled agriculture, not to wage war. Arguably this was a movement away from violence, as compared to nomadic tribes constantly competing over hunting and foraging territories.

> Moralizing the past is senseless, whether you argue it was good or bad. It matters not that the colonial era is less old than others. All we can do with our newly calibrated compasses is decide what good means going forward.

How exactly do we “calibrate our compasses” without reference to our past? It’s entirely valid to judge what in our past immoral in hopes that we can steer our present away from their reoccurrence. It’s hardly senseless, but indicative of our capacity to reflect, change, and not senselessly repeat these horrors.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by zvorygin on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @02:40AM (#24117753)
> Civilization emerged around settled agriculture, not to wage war. Arguably this was a movement away from violence, as compared to nomadic tribes constantly competing over hunting and foraging territories.

Is this even true? I remember when I was reading "Seeing like a State" (or possibly this is from "Against the Grain"), the book would talk about how the first settled civilizations were all violent and oppressive, because nobody wanted to engage in agriculture. Why would you, when anyone could walk into nature where there was an abundance of food and life was much easier.

The original movement towards settled civilization was a violent one, where people were forced to work the land, and would try to escape. Nomadic tribes didn't violently compete with each other as much as settled societies. At least, that was the impression I was under.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by manfredo on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @12:25PM (#24122148)
This not a mainstream view today. Archaeological and anthropological research has overwhelmingly indicated that pre agricultural societies were incredibly violent, moreso than agricultural ones. Pre agricultural societies averaged between 15 and 40% of people dying violent deaths (as in, died at the hands of other humans) as compared to 3-5% in agricultural societies. It drops even further for industrial societies. To put this in perspective, about 1.7 to 1.9% of people died violently in the 20th century.

The view that pre agricultural societies were peaceful was not based in evidence, but based in wishful thinking: if civilization corrupted people then we could fix it by undoing this corruption. This was a popular belief around the 1960s and 1970s when there was little to no hard evidence on the behavior of early human societies.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by slothtrop on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @11:13AM (#24121143)
> Civilization emerged around settled agriculture, not to wage war.

The point of central agriculture was to produce more bodies, to wage war, if you're to believe the argument in the Origins of Political History, and I do. This necessitated bureaucracy, hence Civilization.

> Arguably this was a movement away from violence, as compared to nomadic tribes constantly competing over hunting and foraging territories.

Well we have a cleaner record of the violence after that point in History, the scale for which got more brutal and concentrated over time. When your population is small, territories over the globe are vast and plentiful; I fail to see an angle where centralization was necessitated for peace, as opposed to conquest.

> How exactly do we “calibrate our compasses” without reference to our past?

To be clear: it's not a question of reference, as the past shaped and developed the morals you and I have today. Though judging it broadly in a detached sense, through our morals, renders most of our past evil, which is banal. It's not a person. Looking to the past can help identify and inform what we deem to be wrong today, which is different than saying the past is evil.

What we take for granted here is consequentialism, which is retrospective. Leading up to WW1, war was widely romanticized and considered virtuous and even the upper classmen partook (see: the War That Ended Peace), likened to skirmishes that ended fairly quickly, and of course it was a different animal by then, war was hellish once more. Colonialism in concept was not considered wrong, though perhaps consequences as a result (e.g. atrocities) would not have been considered good if you quizzed the average person. When we judge colonialism, we largely judge the consequence such that atrocities are unjustifiable no matter the other benefits. Sure. But I say to you: that's all of History, that's all of what led us here today, that led us to be "enlightened" (to be "good" as we understand it to mean today) and type on computers. We'll shift our course to avoid the bad stuff, and I'm sure in the future looking back we'll find evils.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by blueyes on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:58PM (#24113911)
How about the fact that the British Empire, at great cost to its own interests, ended the practice of slavery widespread among Arabs and sub-Saharan Africans?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWrfjUzYvPo

That does not fit into the anti-colonialist narrative either.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Monday August 10, 2020 @08:05PM (#24115731)
That is not at all how that works. How do you reconcile this altruism with Britain's continued trade with and reliance on goods from the Americas and their continued use of slave labour? How is it that so many Westerners keep making these strangely naïve and surface-level readings of history and politics?

You might find this interesting: https://origins.osu.edu/review/after-abolition-britain-and-s...

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by docent8 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @12:12PM (#24133502)
Britain as a society was no doubt for and against slavery, given that its economy had major dependencies on slave-driven commerce and production. But that does not justify a purely cynical reading.

Most societies of that time did not even bother to outlaw slavery, let alone enforce those laws. There were contradictions within British society. That was an enormous advance over the many societies and nations that simply accepted slavery in that period.

Societies in Africa, the Middle East, the Americas, Asia and elsewhere in Europe were open in their commitment to and acceptance of slavery as an institution. You could say that slavery was the norm historically. Britain was the exception. And as the exception, managing a global empire, it continued to have many interactions with slave-driven economies.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by trabant00 on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @07:46AM (#24119318)
> How do you reconcile this altruism with Britain's continued trade with and reliance on goods from the Americas and their continued use of slave labour?

By simply not moving the goal posts.

> so many Westerners keep making these strangely naïve and surface-level readings of history and politics

So they are naive for noticing a good thing in an ocean of evil, and you are keeping it real by thinking that until everything is perfect no progress matters. Got it.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @08:26AM (#24119572)
It's not "moving the goal posts" to point out that the "great cost to her interests" was largely nonexistent considering that Britain kept right on benefiting from and funding it under the table - it's simply knowing enough of the history involved to not reason like a small child.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by trabant00 on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @08:55AM (#24119780)
Keep adding insults to your posts. Makes you right every time.

And for the "benefiting", there's nothing anybody can do that you people won't label as benefiting even if it's 2nd, 3rd or 10th party. All the while posting this on devices produced by workers free only in name with materials from the poorest countries with the most horrible work conditions in their mines.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by jhardy54 on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @10:24AM (#24120545)
> you people

Yikes.

> All the while posting this on devices produced by workers free only in name with materials from the poorest countries with the most horrible work conditions in their mines.

Sweet, so you're obviously an anti-capitalist too right?

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by thu2111 on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @12:05PM (#24121908)
The Empire traded with huge parts of the globe, not just America.

Are you saying that a failure to wipe out slavery everywhere simultaneously means the Navy's sacrifices of so many British lives were meaningless?

In the end, what ended mass slavery in the world? The British Empire and the American civil war, fought primarily by the descendents of the British. That's not nothing.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @01:27PM (#24122976)
I'll encourage you to read the linked article in my comment, thank you.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by boomboomsubban on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:39PM (#24115527)
I'm not watching a two hour video on this, but how exactly was it against their own interests? Not only had they finally exited the slave trade, their colonization of of the area allowed them to use the manpower in their own empire.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by baddox on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @02:56AM (#24117837)
Was the entire system of colonialism necessary in order for the British Empire to spend resources to end slavery there?
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by bantunes on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:41AM (#24107662)
I recently heard about Benin and the British "punitive expedition" that looted the country in a Vox video, of all things, about the world's largest open crime scene - the British Museum https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoTxiRWrvp8
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by tdsamardzhiev on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @03:09AM (#24117908)
Did Benin not fight and conquer weaker civilizations? Did Benin not trade African people for slaves?

None of these are unique to European colonial powers. So in that sense, the question is "why not?" rather than "why?"

Take away service-based economy, global trade and the internet, and the strong of today (or of any other time) would indeed have more use of a second TV than of world peace.

I hope that thanks to the advancement of technology, people around the world will see this instance of prisoner's dilemma for what it is, and work towards a better world together. Sadly, what I observe in reality is that people who will get the most benefit out of this seem to be its strongest opponents.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @08:12AM (#24119471)
I quite feel you have managed to miss the entire point. This might help out a little: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24108231
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by x86_64Ubuntu on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @09:56AM (#24120260)
He didn't miss the point. It's standard whataboutism. You see the same arguments concerning Native Americans in the US where the proposition is that since they didn't all live in peace, their extermination shouldn't be seen as out of the ordinary.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by Legogris on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:47AM (#24107700)
Is it fair to say that

* the colonization was a huge net negative and violation of the population at the time

* the colonization arguably could be a net positive for current and future generations

* the latter does not justify the former

?

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:36AM (#24108134)
Like with many things, it's a mixed bag. It's easy to say "well, the damage is done and all we can do now is take what we've got and look to the future", but if you look closer you can see that the damage is still ongoing and the need for decolonisation is still high.

Take architecture, for example. Traditionally pretty much every ethnic group I know of built with mud brick and thatch. During the colonial era - and afterwards, till today really - such building techniques were derided as backwards savagery. Of course the European way of using concrete was "better" and "modern", even though it's a terrible building material for a hot, humid climate. A mud house can keep quite cool in 35°C plus weather with just vents. A concrete house on the other hand traps so much heat at even lower temperatures that we end up needing fans and air conditioners to be comfortable indoors, which of course drives up individuals' carbon footprints and electricity bills.

The ghost of colonialism still lingers decades later in a whole lot of little things like that. So yes, we may be headed towards a net positive future but in my opinion the way to get there requires even further divesting from the colonial era and its ways of thinking (re: the architecture example, there are new schools of builders who explicitly aim to incorporate precolonial building wisdom in their work).

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by pasabagi on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @01:51AM (#24117520)
I grew up in a house built out of 'wattle and daub', with a thatch roof. I wouldn't have called it a mud hut, but it was definitely a mud cottage. That is also the typical house of rural people in England in the colonial era.

Seems to me that the typical comparison between european architecture and 'mud huts' is based on a lack of knowledge about european building processes.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @08:22AM (#24119541)
Consider that maybe I am well aware of what, for example, the company Adobe's name is referring to.

So it seems to me that your comment is based on a dire lack of knowledge about how colonialism works. The British straight-up imposed town planning laws that banned using mud to build new houses so that they could build the concrete towns and cities they envisioned - I know precisely what I am talking about.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by pasabagi on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @06:15PM (#24137664)
I'd genuinely like to see a reference. I don't know of any concrete-heavy building styles before the development of reinforced concrete in the late 19th century. It would have also been pretty cutting edge until maybe halfway through the 20th century.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:22AM (#24140176)
Out of curiosity, when exactly do you think the colonial era I am talking about was? The Middle Ages?

> It would have also been pretty cutting edge until maybe halfway through the 20th century.

Nah, there have been houses built using concrete blocks since fairly early in the 19th. Using cement in house construction was hardly cutting edge in the 1920s - 1930s.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by pasabagi on Thursday August 13, 2020 @11:53AM (#24144669)
>concrete blocks since fairly early in the 19th

That's the thing. I don't think that's the case. I think they are a 1900's-earliest, 1930's mainstream kind of thing.

So by the time they became mainstream, the UK was already beginning the second world war, which would mark the end of the time when they were really rich or powerful enough to be an imperial state.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:06PM (#24145576)
What you think or don't think and what is reality don't always align, sorry

For example, the first concrete built house in the US was built in 1837. Francois Coignet was making significant use of Portland cement as early as the 1850s/1860s.

Even beyond that, I'll ask you yet again - when, exactly, do you think the colonial era I am talking about was? When exactly do you think Britain let go of all its territories in Africa? Come now, this isn't exactly hidden information or difficult to look up.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by pasabagi on Thursday August 13, 2020 @03:21PM (#24147230)
Well, the question is not 'when did Britain let go of its territories'.

The question is 'when did Britain lose the kind of involvement you need to get into low-level building regulation?'

Near as I can find, they never had that kind of interest or involvement. Which is why I wanted a source for your claim that they banned traditional building materials.

So my thinking is simple: prior to 1930 is a bit early for concrete blocks to be the logical building material outside of places like New York, and even there, it would be a bit newfangled.

After 1930 is a bit late for the british to be really calling the shots about what gets built and how it gets built, since the period between 1945 and 1960 was characterized by increasing independence and english divestment. Maybe some university buildings?

Anyway, this whole conversation is a bit of a strange digression from your original rather belicose response to my observation that concrete was not by any means the 'European way'. It's my feeling that, aside from some monumental architecture (which it seems nigeria also had) most europeans were also building with brick, wood, plaster and thatch, up until the 19th century.

If you look at a modern timber frame house in the UK, the basic structure would be familiar to a roman architect. The timber structure is laid on brick piles, which are in turn laid on concrete foundations (the only modern addition - victorian houses often wouldn't have these), then a tile roof is fitted on top. It's a ridiculously ancient design.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by JulianMorrison on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:51PM (#24113294)
People in America and Britain are working with mud in quite sophisticated ways, only it's called "cob" and "adobe" and "rammed earth" and isn't stigmatised as "mud huts".
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by danans on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @01:42AM (#24117484)
You're talking about the cutting edge of experimental building techniques, not the common building techniques used in the US and UK.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by JulianMorrison on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @05:22PM (#24126132)
They do have cutting edge variations, such as Oregon cob. They also have old fashioned variations, that still exist and are used. And some of the cutting edge is old enough to feel a bit rusty. (Superadobe was invented before people knew about the problems of microplastics, for example.)
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by SenoraRaton on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @05:34AM (#24118679)
Hahahaha, centuries old techniques are now "cutting edge".
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by danans on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @10:42AM (#24120746)
Yes, they are. You'll find that rammed earth [1] and cob buildings are used only at the cutting edge of expensive high design ecological buildings. Industrial building materials nearly wiped traditional methods of home building off the face of the developed world.

We are in many ways rediscovering older methods and techniques of building, especially in materials.

Also Consider SuperAdobe [2], which uses nothing but dirt onsite and plastic bags.

1. https://www.dwell.com/article/modern-rammed-earth-homes-723d...

2. https://www.calearth.org/intro-superadobe

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by JulianMorrison on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @05:29PM (#24126191)
I'd argue that cob in particular spans across the range from build-it-yourself Womble homes to fancy schmancy eco-bourgeois. And that it's mainly access to land and planning permission that's blocking the former (or causing them to be bulldozed by busybodies). It genuinely is one of the rare few building materials that can be prepared from materials on site and put up by amateurs.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by WalterBright on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:01PM (#24112784)
You've piqued my curiosity. Technically, why does a mud house keep the interior cooler? Is it the material, or the design?
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by jacquesm on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:17PM (#24112942)
Mud is porous (as long as you don't glaze it) and it has a pretty good R value. So it's the material more than the design, though anything approximating a sphere will do better than something with straight walls due to the maximum enclosed space within the minimum size skin. That also helps when you want to heat it. (Least heat transfer area to the outside.)
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by WalterBright on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:49PM (#24113279)
Why would being porous help, unless the mud is damp and there's some evaporative cooling going on?

I know in the American southwest adobe construction is popular, but that's about sheer thermal mass moderating the effects of the heat. Small windows also help.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by jbotz on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:49PM (#24113815)
There always is some evaporative cooling going on. At night the cooling causes condensation, and the dry clay absorbs this moisture, then during the day sun and wind dry it out again causing evaporative cooling. How big this effect is varies in different climates, but from personal experience (I've helped build some adobe houses, and have friends who live in them) I can say that it's not negligible. Another benefit is that in humid climates (like mine) the interior of an adobe house tends to be significantly less damp; enough so that we can see the difference with the salt in the salt shaker... around here in brick/cement houses it always clumps very quickly, in adobe homes it remains lose and powdery (salt starts to clump when humidity is above 75%).
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by jacquesm on Monday August 10, 2020 @05:03PM (#24113963)
Yes, it is evaporative cooling. That's why I mentioned the pores. The mud wets and then later the moisture evaporates drawing energy from the surrounding clay.

Phase change can get you below zero easily, it certainly works as a poor man's AC. It is incredible how much energy phase change requires compared to just raising the temperature of the medium.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by JulianMorrison on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:55PM (#24113337)
Mud houses in traditional cob and adobe designs tend to be built thick, partly in order to be sturdy, but also because the sheer mass of the walls acts like a heat capacitor that can be used to either absorb cool night temperatures and smooth the temperature extremes, or warmed with a constant low level fire for colder climes.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by twalla on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:19PM (#24112967)
I believe the thermal mass for mud and adobe is higher than cinder block or stick frame buildings so the structure gets cooled in the night and remains cool throughout the day with the added benefit of providing some additional warmth in the night.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by projektfu on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @07:34AM (#24119253)
Ground coupling is another factor. I learned a lot visiting the Eco-Village Training Center in Tennessee in 101F (39C) heat. The cob house was as comfortable as the air-conditioned cabin.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by thu2111 on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @12:36PM (#24122302)
I believe there may be reasons for use of concrete in Africa that aren't related to colonialism.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @01:25PM (#24122961)
Yes I agree, it is obviously complete coincidence that the British imposed town planning laws that banned the use of the building materials that actually worked for our climate.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by thu2111 on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @03:40AM (#24129525)
Are you being serious? How exactly do you build modern roads, skyscrapers, dams or really anything large scale and industrial out of mud bricks?
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Thursday August 13, 2020 @01:10AM (#24140123)
Are you being serious? How exactly do you read a comment mentioning fans, air conditioners, staying comfortable indoors, and individuals' electric bills and be so one-track-minded as to think I was talking about roads and not, perhaps, residential buildings?
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by Latty on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:55AM (#24107761)
> the colonization arguably could be a net positive for current and future generations

I think this is a misleading statement anyway, because it requires a comparison point. If it was to "no interaction at all with the colonial powers", then maybe? If it was to "free trade with the colonial powers", almost certainly not.

Even in the first case I say maybe, because who knows what their society would have looked like. It may have advanced more slowly, but maybe that would have left them with more natural resources, more culture in tact, different advancements that benefited them in different ways. The trade-off there is very unclear and just saying it would be a "net positive" is a massive leap to me.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by Emma_Goldman on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:11AM (#24107928)
Keep in mind that inter-imperial conflict arguably led to two world wars, and that the first world war produced the Bolshevik Revolution, making the Cold War possible. There are a lot of counter-factuals involved in claims like this.

Another problem is that settler colonialism exterminated the populations of the Americas and Australasia. The inter-generational comparison in those cases is primarily between two separate populations: the genocide of natives against the wealth of the ancestors of settlers.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by tgflynn on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:25PM (#24113031)
> Keep in mind that inter-imperial conflict arguably led to two world wars

I'm not an historian but my impression is that WWI was primarily the result of intra-European conflicts between the great powers with any colonial issues being little more than a sideshow. WWII in Europe then seems to have been a nearly inevitable consequence of unresolved issues from the prior war. The only aspect of the two wars that does look a great deal like a war between competing colonial empires was the Pacific Theater of the Second World War.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by Emma_Goldman on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @06:27AM (#24118905)
The period from the Berlin Conference of 1884 to the First World War was the high watermark of European imperialism. British and French imperial holdings in Africa tripled, and Germany went from a handful of colonial holdings, to owning 10% of the landmass of Africa. By 1913 the European powers had colonised 96% of Africa. The dwindling of territories led to extreme competition among the colonial powers. Flash points in Fashoda (1898) and Morocco (1905 and 1911) nearly tipped over into war. Arguably, the underlying cause was the fact that gross inequality in the European powers created domestic imbalances in which capital outstripped purchasing power, forcing it to seek new investments abroad. One might draw a crude analogy between the way in which the Cold War was externalised to the global South, and the way that European tensions after 1884 played out in Africa.

As for the Second World War, I would say two things. First, that Nazi ideology was, in many ways, a product of European imperialism: its ideal of a Pan-Germanic state in Central Europe, its virulently racist and extermanist designs, and even its use of concentration camps. Second, one of the main grievances of Germany was that it was stripped of its colonial territories at Versailles, and that its territories were transformed into mandates run by the League of Nations according to principles of free trade, at the same time that France and Britain continued to run their own colonies as protectionist blocs. It was British sympathy for this colonial imbalance that, in part, stood behind the policy of appeasement. As for Japan, it was a classically imperialist power, reacting to the expansion of the US across the Pacific.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by tgflynn on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @09:26AM (#24120038)
I'm pretty sure that Alsace-Lorraine was far more prominent in the consciousness of most French (certainly) and German (probably) citizens in 1914 than were any extra-European colonies.

As for the Nazis, their primary target was European Jews who had been living in Europe for millenia as well as other European peoples they viewed as inferior to the Germans, such as the Slavic peoples.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by Emma_Goldman on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @11:13AM (#24121138)
Perhaps, but the long-term axis of geopolitical competition and spiralling armament was imperial. If you accept Hobson's thesis that imperialism was a way of off-loading the surplus capital consequent from European inequality, not only was imperialism the axis of competition, but the competition was necessarily imperial in nature.

There is no possible narrative explanation of the war that does not centre on the scramble for Africa. Would there have been a great power war between Germany and the status quo powers at some point absent the scramble for Africa? It is very difficult to say. Had it occurred, it would have been radically different in shape. This goes back to my initial point about the uncertainty factored into any big counter-factual like this.

As for the Nazis, my point was that the very ideology of racism was a direct product of European imperialism. That it was primarily directed at Jews and Slavs is besides the point. Hannah Arendt - one of the most prominent Jewish intellectuals of the twentieth century - famously made the case that the Nazi holocaust was an outgrowth of European imperialism in The Origins of Totalitarianism.

It's worth pointing out that the one of the main rationales of Nazi imperialism was to create a living space in Europe in which to off-load Germany's surplus population. This had long been one of the main justifications for European colonialism, and the expropriation of Germany's colonies at Versailles made it look to Europe again to solve the problem. What are arguably the first two (imperial!) campaigns of the Second World War - Japan's invasion of Manchuria, Italy's invasion of Ethiopia - were both justified as means of creating outlets for their soaring surplus populations. Both of them faced profoundly racist immigration restrictions in the main destinations of migration, namely the United States and Australia.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by merpnderp on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:36PM (#24113152)
In many places in the US, colonist showed up to areas that had been densely peopled a hundred years before, but were then nearly empty from disease. It wasn't settlers, but contact that did most of the killing.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by rbecker on Monday August 10, 2020 @09:52AM (#24109205)
> Colonisation was a betrayal

No, it was simply conquest. For example, the Umayyads did not betray Hispania when they invaded, because they never had any allegiance to Hispania in the first place.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by solaceb on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:17PM (#24112944)
I feel as though "conquest" is a rather neutral term, despite obviously communicating that some violence took place. Whereas "betrayal" feels to me like it carries a much heavier negative connotation and emphasis on the brutality of the affair.

I would therefore term it a betrayal, and for me that is to say the colonizers betrayed Africans but also broader humanity -- their own humanity.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by Veen on Monday August 10, 2020 @05:15PM (#24114075)
I’m curious if you consider “betrayal” the appropriate term for all conquests, or just Western conquests. Did the Seljuk Turks betray the Byzantines when they conquered Anatolia? Or had Romans previously betrayed the Seclucids, who had previously betrayed the various other people who occupied the area. These same patterns of repeated conquest and colonization have been repeated throughout human history from the very earliest days, including within Africa.

The British were themselves the product of multiple waves of conquest and colonization from the Paleolithic through the Iberian migrations, the Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, and Normans up until 1066 and beyond.

It’s a constant of human behavior and historical development, so I’m not sure betrayal is really the right way to the think about it.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:35PM (#24115489)
> I’m curious if you consider “betrayal” the appropriate term for all conquests, or just Western conquests.

I would consider any conquest that involved the breaking of a centuries-long cordial relationship to be a betrayal, yes. What exactly is your point?

> Did the Seljuk Turks betray the Byzantines when they conquered Anatolia? Or had Romans previously betrayed the Seclucids, who had previously betrayed the various other people who occupied the area

> The British were themselves the product of multiple waves of conquest and colonization from the Paleolithic through the Iberian migrations, the Celts, Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, and Normans up until 1066 and beyond.

No offence to you personally, but this particular brand of intellectual dishonesty - discussing the British empire as though it is far-flung history and not very recent indeed - is quite annoying. The conquests you bring up were a thousand years ago, two thousand in the case of the Roman-Seleucid war. On the other hand the expedition that subjugated the Benin Kingdom was in 1897, and it (as part of the country now called Nigeria) did not gain its independence from Britain until 1960. My father was born under colonial rule, for crying out loud, and I'm not even thirty yet. People don't make a habit of jumping into discussions of the German invasion of France in WW2 with anecdotes on Charlemagne's conquest of Bavaria - why on earth do they think it's okay to do when talking about the colonial era?

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by lordgroff on Monday August 10, 2020 @09:05PM (#24116160)
Eastern European here who wonders how the Ottoman rule was a thousand years ago. The Ottoman colonization lasted some 500 years for us and ended in late 19th and early 20th centuries, depending. Btw, I agree with your general point that colonization is pretty much always a net negative.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @08:02AM (#24119425)
If you perhaps look at my comment again you will notice that I said the conquests, not the period of colonisation. The point, which might have been easy to miss, was that getting up and invading another nation in the Middle Ages is a rather different proposition from getting up and invading one close to the turn of the 20th.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by Veen on Wednesday August 12, 2020 @11:35AM (#24133095)
I can't help but think you rely on Whiggish assumptions about history. Invasions in the Middle Ages and today seem different if you think we have progressed beyond our ancestors, that to act against that supposed progress is to betray it.

In fact, we're cognitively identical to the Medieval and Roman people. We have different ethical frameworks in the 21st century, but human nature doesn't change so fast. The British in the 19th Century were driven by the same underlying factors as the Romans 2000 years ago and Russia, China, and (arguably) the US today. We can certainly condemn it and trumpet our moral outrage, but that doesn't help us to understand or avoid it.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by Veen on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @05:19AM (#24118598)
I agree that recent colonizations are more relevant politically and morally to the present day. But I do think we have to see Western colonialism as part of a universal behavior exhibited by human societies. We should make an effort to understand the history in its full complexity.

My motivation is not to minimize the abhorrent behavior of the British during that period, but to ensure that we don't make it out to be something uniquely evil that cannot be repeated in the future.

(And I do think it is important to see WWII in its historical context: the formation of the Holy Roman Empire, the rise of Prussian dominance, the Treaty of Versailles, etc. To do so doesn't minimize the responsibility of Germany in the 30s and 40s, but it does help us to understand the complexities behind the simplifying narratives of all sides.)

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @08:06AM (#24119447)
We do see World War 2 in its historical context, and we manage to discuss them all the time without making absolutely sure to work in "well we should all be grateful to the Nazis for the advances in science and technology that they drove, let us consider Both Sides" at every opportunity.

We are simply asking you to extend the same intellectual grace when discussing and teaching about colonialism, which by-the-by was going on at the same time as the world wars.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by Veen on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @08:43AM (#24119674)
The "let's consider both sides" approach is part of the problem. I don't want to consider the partisan or ideologically motivated narratives of both sides — at least not in isolation — because they are equally likely to be false. Instead I want to understand what actually happened, its causes and consequences, and how it relates to other historical events.

It is an unfortunate reality that the victims of colonialism have no more of a monopoly on the truth than the perpetrators.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:53PM (#24115651)
Thank you - the point I was trying to convey was that it was not simply venturing into uncharted lands in the name of a monarch, the way many Westerners seem to picture it (perhaps with the colonisation of the Americas in mind, which is more of what I would just call a conquest). These were known lands, with known sovereignty, and known established relationships, trade agreements and shared history - the imperialist subjugation was out of greed and a desire for profit maximisation, not out of unfamiliarity.

And as to the point you made about betraying humanity: it's funny how people generally understand that the First and Third Reichs were out of line, understand the ethical reasons for the Allies opposing their takeover of Europe, but make excuses upon excuses upon excuses for European nations executing the very same imperialist agenda in Africa at the very same time.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by jtbayly on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:01AM (#24107829)
Japan didn’t avoid colonization entirely. It attempted to get some action on the colonizer side.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by me_me_me on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:41AM (#24108178)
That was the whole linchpin behind Japanese expansionism.

Japanese government realized that they are behind in development both technological and economical.

Those were the colonized countries. So to avoid being colonized, they did all in their power to become colonizers themselves.

The irony is that out of all colonized countries the Japanese colonies were the one that net benefited from colonization. At the cost of brutal oppression and atrocities, but Japanese considered those their 'land' and instead focusing purely on extraction of wealth (europen model) they were developing infrastructure.

All in all, the whole 'colonization was not so bad' is whitewashing of history. And we should stop putting positive light on it. Just because one slave owner was 'good' it doesn't make slavery justified.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by claudeganon on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:14PM (#24113502)
> The irony is that out of all colonized countries the Japanese colonies were the one that net benefited from colonization.

This is a completely inaccurate representation of the various Japanese colonial projects. While some historians might refer to what became Taiwan in these terms, very few would say the same of Korea or the territories in China the Japanese occupied.

In fact, the viciousness and extractive nature of the Japanese colonial projects are what justified to many the corollary anti-colonial violence that eventually escalated into civil war in the Korean peninsula. For example,An Jung-geun, who assassinated the Japanese colonial administrator Ito Hirobumi, is still considered a national hero in both the north and the south.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by randompwd on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:29PM (#24113634)
> All in all, the whole 'colonization was not so bad' is whitewashing of history. And we should stop putting positive light on it. Just because one slave owner was 'good' it doesn't make slavery justified

Eh, you're whitewashing history right there.

Projecting today's morals,values & information on to a past people who did not have those who were raised when the norm was the norm.

Savagery existed throughout mankind and to think otherwise is silly.

Every land had tribes who may have formed an alliance but also would have just as likely killed & enslaved others outside their tribe. _Every_ land.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by me_me_me on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:19PM (#24114728)
> Projecting today's morals,values & information on to a past people who did not have those who were raised when the norm was the norm.

Of course we can and we do that, that is the only way we progress as a species.

Killing and enslaving is objectively wrong, no matter if you are 15th century peasant or 20 cent soldier.

What next? Ethnic cleansing are/were not so bad as they result in strengthening of national coherence? Eugenics is simply caring for the future generations?

Its a slippery slope argument giving a pass to past actions as they 'didn't know' its bad what they had done.

> Savagery existed throughout mankind and to think otherwise is silly. I have not said that you are building a straw-man here. I advocate not to call the savagery act anything but savagery.

>Every land had tribes who may have formed an alliance but also would have just as likely killed & enslaved others outside their tribe. _Every_ land.

So that gives me a right to kill you and enslave your family?

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by DamnYuppie on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:16PM (#24113518)
I don't disagree that colonization was not a good thing. Yet in all of human history we have struggled against one another for dominion of land and resources. How is colonization really any different then all the other wars/conquests done before? Or is simply that it was done on such a scale that sets it apart or is it the relative nearness of it historically that brings it more to relevance for people?
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:48AM (#24108231)
True! Even the Benin Kingdom itself was, after all, an empire that sought to (and did) expand its borders within the region. What I am saying is that you cannot justify imperialist expansionism with "but they did good for the people they subjugated", because that good could have been accomplished without the looting and destruction of other nations.

In other words, some things simply don't need to be defended. We can acknowledge that they happened and discuss them levelly without trying to put bad actors in a better light. To invoke Godwin's Law a bit, we do manage to discuss Nazi Germany without constantly saying "Well actually we are all better off because they did lead to some advances in science and technology". (As an aside, colonialism is arguably more recent than Hitler - Nigeria for one did not gain independence from Britain until 1960. Yet one is considered "too soon" but the other is treated as though it happened in some distant past that we should all have gotten over by now.)

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by trabant00 on Monday August 10, 2020 @09:05AM (#24108812)
> simple truth: colonisation was wholly unnecessary, and that is what makes it unethical no matter how much good one tries to link to it

1. Unnecessary. Unnecessary for what? Anything? Cause in that case I do not agree. The rise, expansion and collapse of empires is very necessary for the development and testing of human organizational models. The price for change (not necessarily good) is human life. That's the reality of the entire history of the human race, you can't simply wish it otherwise.

2. Unethical. Morals are highly subjective and debatable, but I do want to mention one thing. Magna Carta originated in evil white Europe and the whole world benefits from it's forceful spread.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by heavenlyblue on Monday August 10, 2020 @09:27AM (#24108981)
2. Manga Carta is far away from the first example of a democratic policy in a written form :)

Will your next point be about British developing the radar and the radio?

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by trabant00 on Monday August 10, 2020 @10:13AM (#24109454)
Magna Carta has nothing to do with democracy. And what are those previos examples?
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by jandrese on Monday August 10, 2020 @03:20PM (#24112974)
The Magna Carta is all about decentralizing power, which is the foundation of Democracy.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by baddox on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @02:58AM (#24117850)
> The rise, expansion and collapse of empires is very necessary for the development and testing of human organizational models.

Which attributes are being tested, other than the ability of a society to expand and conquer or destroy other societies?

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by trabant00 on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @04:19AM (#24118298)
It's evolution of human societies really. And like all evolution it's not moral, nor has any higher purpose. Different models compete with each other, the capacity to survive, expand and evolve is what is being tested.

Preying is part of life. People forget we are animals. Sure, we try to impose some rules on the preying, but who can enforce them but the strongest?

I am not trying to deny our need for liberty and safety. But you have to think about those in the real context of constant conflict. At any time you should look around and chose to support one predator over another, because there are real differences that will impact your needs. And many people from that time and place in the original article chose the white wolves.

Edit to address you question more directly: empires need to provide some things to the ones who are being ruled, otherwise you can't keep order. Lack of order means lack of efficiency, which affects army, which affects their ability to control and expand the empire. So there is a constant quest for balance between taking resources and giving back things. New empires pop up that do it better and they kill everything around until they fall themselves. Evolution.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by newyankee on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @02:20AM (#24117645)
BBC routinely runs articles rationalizing the positive sides of colonialism in India.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by romanoderoma on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:23AM (#24108026)
I think this debate is very interesting and must be carried on among people coming from former African colonies.

It gives us European more perspectives to look at and improves the level of the discussion that, in my opinion, has no particular value or chances of persisting new ideas if it takes place exclusively on social networks in the form of slogans and memes.

I'm Italian, I ideally descend from the African born emperor Septimius Severus, who was born in Leptis Magna the modern Al-Khums in Lybia.

I've always been fascinated by the strong bond that the early Roman empire had with northern Africa and Middle East, where all the modern western civilizations were born.

They looked at them in respect, when Septimius Severus became emperor the Egyptians were already older to the Romans than Romans are to us today.

Septimium Severus became emperor defeating his opponent, an usurper of the empire, Gaius Pescennius Niger.

Niger in Latin means black, dark, but also evil and ill-omened, the latter being the ones that described him better.

Niger is also the name of the river that gave name to Nigeria, but the meaning is completely different, yet it sounds exactly the same. When I was a kid studying ancient history at school I was always looking for coincidence like this one, I believed they were magic.

Africa at the time of Septimius Severus was a very advanced country, in every aspect of life: they had some of the largest cities in the World, they were good sailors, they had prosperous markets, they had the largest library in the entire World and let's not forget the monumental buildings - still unarrived today.

Romans were great engineers, they built roads, infrastructures such as bridges and aqueducts, but also thermal baths ran by geothermal energy (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquae_Sulis)

But Gaius Pescennius Niger usurped the empire and Septimius Severus had to fight him until Gaius was defeated and then killed.

I'm fascinated by Roman history and I read a lot about it, but I cannot look the other way when I think at it on a human level: they were constantly killing each other no matter how many advancement they brought to society, engineering, politics, rule of the law, they killed each other, a lot!

What I get from this essay is not that there was a good colonialism but that pre colonialism wasn't that good as well.

My father used to read me "Roots: The Saga of an American Family" when I was a little kid and I will never condone what happened and the devastation it caused and that's why I ultimately believe that "debate should always serve the ultimate purpose of helping build ... rather than tearing things apart"

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by asa4akj on Monday August 10, 2020 @09:36AM (#24109057)
Thanks for your comment. Quite interesting.

Also, people tend to forget that Africa is a huge continent, and drastically different from north to south. Specially with regards to the past.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by recuter on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:12AM (#24107933)
What Have The Romans ever done for us?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc7HmhrgTuQ

Colonisation was wholly inevitable. Japan, as per your example, had a big freak out when Perry forced them open - realised that "dutch studies" were a matter of national security - and modernised at absolute breakneck pace as they happened to have had all the social structures already in place to accomplish this.

And no sooner had they closed the gap that they turned around and became ruthless colonisers themselves. Such was the game for all of human history until the 20th century.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by blaser-waffle on Monday August 10, 2020 @10:14AM (#24109461)
> Such was the game for all of human history until the 20th century

It hasn't stopped, it just stopped being blatant.

See Confessions of an Economic Hitman for the US approach, or the Belt & Road Initiative (and all if it's hidden enforcement measures and implications) for a Chinese implementation.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by recuter on Monday August 10, 2020 @02:48PM (#24112644)
Oh absolutely. And there's no shortage of pretty blatant examples to boot, people just conveniently avoid thinking about it. See East Timor for example.

We have yet to fully step out of barbarism and into modernity as a species.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by dotancohen on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:34PM (#24113683)
The European colonialism would not have happened had there not been resources - human and mineral - to exploit. They would not have brought their technology over in exchange for a smile and a hug. Without something to exploit their would have been no reason for the Europeans to have anything to do with Africa or the New World.

Your comparison with passwords is apt. In fact, it was less than a decade ago that I would sniff wifi and collect all kinds of passwords. In fact, it was so easy that a browser extension was created specifically to sniff other wifi users' Facebook passwords. That browser extension was the straw that broke the camel: since then there has been a huge push towards HTTPS.

Where does this fit into your analogy? Weakness invites exploitation, exploitation catalyses the push towards improvement. We see it everywhere: car safety, environmental regulations, Arab spring, gay rights. Yes, the colonialism _was_ necessary to get to the standard of living now seen in major African cities. As a Jew, I'll tell you that the Holocaust was a necessary step towards a modern, independent Jewish state.

That does _not_ excuse colonialism, the Holocaust, password sniffing, toxic chemical dumping, or any of the other atrocities that had to occur for the dice to fall where they are today.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:12PM (#24115268)
> They would not have brought their technology over in exchange for a smile and a hug.

Somehow you seem to have missed the entire point of my comment, which is that there were already existing relationships based on trade and exchange that were betrayed because military subjugation was cheaper in the long run.

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by dotancohen on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @02:29AM (#24117691)
I didn't miss that. I just disagree that trade was enough.
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by filleduchaos on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @11:16AM (#24121178)
Curious indeed that other nations were able to progress and modernise through trade and exchange without compromising their sovereignty, but that wouldn't be enough for African nations for some reason. What exactly would those reasons be?
Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by manfredo on Tuesday August 11, 2020 @12:47PM (#24122431)
> Curious indeed that other nations were able to progress and modernise through trade and exchange without compromising their sovereignty

Where, exactly, did this occur? I suppose one could point to the United States as an example but that's an edge case: a new nation splitting off from an already industrialized nation. Japan might be cited as another example, but they notion that they didn't compromise their sovereignty is not entirely accurately. Japan had contact with Europeans since the 16th century. They didn't industrialize until Western powers used gunboat diplomacy to force favorable trade deals. Furthermore, this was in the 19th century, decades after Europe had fought the first Opium War and colonial conquests in Asia had already begun.

> but that wouldn't be enough for African nations for some reason. What exactly would those reasons be?

Africa isn't being singled out here. The rest of the world didn't industrialize just through commercial contact either.

Europe had been trading with Asia for centuries before colonization occurred, and despite that Asia did not industrialize. These regions had greater centralization, urbanization, and rates of literacy that most other regions of the world. I could flip the question around back to you: what makes you think that trade and exchange would be enough for Africa to industrialize through commercial contact when other regions of the world did not?

Re:Not all the facts fit the anti-colonialist narrative by marci on Monday August 10, 2020 @04:44PM (#24113767)
"the standard of living now seen in major African cities" has been attained ~despite~ colonialism. Not thanks to it.