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Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by TedDoesntTalk on Sunday August 09, 2020 @10:21PM (#24104857)
> Absolute pitch, the ability to identify or produce the pitch of a sound without a reference point, has a critical period, i.e., it can only be acquired early in life.

From an evolutionary perspective, what could possibly be the reason for this?

Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by klodolph on Sunday August 09, 2020 @10:43PM (#24104948)
Infants can distinguish nearly any sound in any language, but not all sounds are important. They lose the ability to distinguish sounds that they don't need to distinguish. The experiment to figure this out is pretty interesting.

A native English speaker has no problem distinguishing /θ/ as in "this" from /s/ as in "sis", but not very many languages need you to make this distinction, so people who learn English later in life have a very hard time with it.

Likewise, English speakers can't tell the difference between long and short vowels, or long and short consonants. That's because there are no long and short vowels or consonants in English--the distinction doesn't matter. But you'd have a hard time learning Finnish or Japanese without it.

And then there are the weird cases, like how in English we have rules for aspirating and voicing /t/ and /k/. If you speak Mandarin then you might pick out /t/ as if it were /d/, but only in certain positions. So "stop" might sound like "sdop", but "top" sounds like "top".

Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by robocat on Monday August 10, 2020 @12:24AM (#24105549)
> That's because there are no long and short vowels or consonants in English--the distinction doesn't matter.

English has the distinction for vowels and it does matter. “can’t” and “cunt” have the same vowel sound in some accents, but “can’t” needs a long vowel sound while “cunt” needs a short vowel sound. Native English speakers speak those those two words quite distinctly.

Lose/loose is another pair (confusingly “lose“ has a long vowel sound and “loose” has a short vowel sound.)

Moon needs a long vowel sound to sound right. I am sure you can think of other examples.

Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by klodolph on Monday August 10, 2020 @01:54AM (#24106014)
You're right, that in some dialects it is different. But to most English dialects, "can't" and "cunt" have completely different vowels, and the length isn't distinguished. "Lose" and "loose" are also distinguished by the voicing, "lose" ends with /z/ and "loose" ends with /s/. Maybe not all dialects.
Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by brutusborn on Sunday August 09, 2020 @10:29PM (#24104896)
Diversion of neural resources to tasks encountered more frequently perhaps? I.e. children that develop in a culture where pitch isn't important end up pruning the neurons for absolute pitch after a critical period.
Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by acd on Monday August 10, 2020 @02:54AM (#24106365)
Maybe the brain would be similar to machine learning “learning rate” parameter. If the learning rate was high it might lead to “overfit”? Overfit is not good for learning.
Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by darksaints on Sunday August 09, 2020 @10:46PM (#24104964)
Why do you assume there is an evolutionary basis for this? Evolutionary perspectives might be helpful for understanding broad genetic characteristics of entire populations. But it isn't even clear if absolute pitch is heritable, let alone anything more than a random variation with null survivability benefits.
Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by klodolph on Sunday August 09, 2020 @10:51PM (#24104993)
Absolute pitch is heritable in the sense that nearly everyone is born with it.

The theories I've heard are that we are born with absolute pitch and develop relative pitch later on, losing absolute pitch at around eight months old. We also develop the ability to associate octaves, so C and C' start sounding "alike" at some point, but this happens because we are exposed to music which treats them as equal.

I find it hard to believe that it would have "null survivability benefits"--it seems pretty useful for distinguishing the sounds of different animals.

Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by TylerE on Sunday August 09, 2020 @11:47PM (#24105309)
> so C and C' start sounding "alike" at some point, but this happens because we are exposed to music which treats them as equal.

I don't follow. They ARE strongly related because an octave is a power of two multiple.

Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by klodolph on Monday August 10, 2020 @12:07AM (#24105445)
You could pick a pure deep violet and red with a 2:1 frequency ratio, but we would not be able to tell. It would simply look like two different colors to us, with no special relationship.

Just because a mathematical relationship exists doesn't mean that we perceive it.

Not all music is built around 2:1 octaves. People who grew up listening to music with 2:1 octaves can identify pitch classes, people who grew up in isolated tribes without exposure to that kind of music--hear C and C' simply as different notes. People with absolute pitch sometimes have the opposite problem--they can accurately recognize the pitch class of C or C', but are more likely to mistake C for C' or vice versa.

Real music often deviates from the 2:1 ratio anyway. Only certain instruments produce a near pure harmonic spectrum, most instruments have some inharmonicity, and these instruments are often played according to their spectrum, rather than the harmonic series.

Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by dr_dshiv on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:15PM (#24114687)
You will like this article of the relation of the octave to neural dynamics: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2346780/
Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by TylerE on Monday August 10, 2020 @12:14AM (#24105497)
Musical frequencies are not "pure".

They are made up of a series of overtones. By far the loudest of these overtones is the 2nd harmonic... which is double the base frequency aka one octave.

This is not some artificial construct but a fundamental part of how things vibrate.

Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by klodolph on Monday August 10, 2020 @01:43AM (#24105947)
> By far the loudest of these overtones is the 2nd harmonic...

Not true in general. There is no reason to expect the 2nd harmonic to be louder than the others. Some instruments produce mostly odd-numbered harmonics, such as the clarinet.

> This is not some artificial construct but a fundamental part of how things vibrate.

That's only true in a one-dimensional world. Instruments in the three-dimensional world are either mode-locked (not freely vibrating) or have some amount of inharmonicity. This is why the octaves on a piano are not tuned to 2:1 ratios, as I mentioned.

Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by dr_dshiv on Monday August 10, 2020 @06:08PM (#24114611)
But pianos are tuned with 2:1 ratios. That is preserved in equal temperment.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_key_frequencies

Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by klodolph on Monday August 10, 2020 @07:38PM (#24115517)
No, pianos are not tuned in 2:1 ratios.

From the article you cited:

> This list of frequencies is for a theoretically ideal piano. On an actual piano the ratio between semitones is slightly larger...

For more details, see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretched_tuning

Or,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_acoustics#The_Railsback_...

Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by kqr on Monday August 10, 2020 @12:25AM (#24105555)
There have been experiments made on people brought up on music where the octave is considered less important and these people do not perceive it as "the same."

It seems the same to us because we're building on hundreds of years of music that tells us it is. If you're comfortable with the tonic moving, the octave is no more "the same" than any other note.

Most of what we take for granted in music is learned through exposure.

Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by hprotagonist on Sunday August 09, 2020 @10:57PM (#24105030)
not all traits have to be beneficial to persist.
Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by klodolph on Sunday August 09, 2020 @11:15PM (#24105123)
We agree on that point... what are you trying to argue?
Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by hprotagonist on Monday August 10, 2020 @08:51AM (#24108692)
n-GP wrote: > From an evolutionary perspective, what could possibly be the reason for this?

and my point is “there need not be one at all, perhaps absolute pitch is a spandrel.”

Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by TedDoesntTalk on Monday August 10, 2020 @02:12PM (#24112242)
I had to look up spandrel. Thank you for the enlightenment, whether or not absolute pitch is indeed a spandrel.
Re:Valproate reopens critical-period learning of absolute pi... by klodolph on Monday August 10, 2020 @10:40AM (#24109740)
I guess I don’t understand why you’re responding to my comment, then.