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Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by sabujp on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:05AM (#24058039)
Future of space as presented in shows like the Expanse. controlled by trillionaires and their companies and powerful people in governments all killing each other over space rocks. We're a long way from Star Trek, that's going to take a more fundamental advance not at all related to technology.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by nubero on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:34AM (#24058190)
I’m glad that not everyone in human history has shared your bright outlook, otherwise we would still live in caves…
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by kieranmaine on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @05:39AM (#24058872)
Could it be the case that a bright outlook leads people to overlook issues that need to be addressed. Maybe a more depressive (or realistic) disposition motivates people to enact change.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by Robotbeat on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:35AM (#24061225)
If let free to roam intellectually without hinderment, I think such a viewpoint leads to nihilistic cynicism, not constructive action.

Which isn’t to say a tempering perspective isn’t at all helpful, I just think in the absence of all optimism (& hope), there’s no room for constructive change

To illustrate, your viewpoint seems consistent with the statement: “There can be no great progress, no humanity taking root among the stars unless led by monstrous men.”

I hope you don’t consider this a straw argument, but it’s worth considering. To believe that statement is to either believe that a “good” future is necessarily one of stagnation and extinction (whether in 1000 years or 500 million years) OR to excuse the actions of monstrous men. A pessimistic, cynical perspective means no counter-movement, no inclusive cooperative with the goal of space settlement. This isn’t exactly motivating.

(And to be clear, from the perspective of history, I do not consider Elon—definitely not perfect—to be monstrous. Neither is SpaceX the work of one man. Gwynne Shotwell is as much the leader of SpaceX as Elon is—although you wouldn’t know it by reading headlines as she doesn’t care for the spotlight—plus thousands of passionate workers (who are co-owners) who believe in this vision and many of whom would be pushing for it even without Elon’s leadership.)

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by sekai on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:13AM (#24059443)
Let's look at this way, humanity needs to become multiplanetary species to prevent extinction if some sort of cataclysm happens on Earth: nuclear war; Yellowstone erupts, etc. Compared to that, any other problem seems insignificant.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by h0l0cube on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:34AM (#24059632)
Life will go on in other parts of the universe, and all life, no matter where they locate themselves, will have some kind of existential threat.

And it doesn't matter how many Dyson spheres are made, if humans aren't dedicated to improving the collective opportunity to live life without suffering, there's little real 'significance' to extending the project of humanity compared to any other life-form.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by shdh on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:55PM (#24064858)
> improving the collective opportunity to live life without suffering

You cannot eliminate suffering.

> Life will go on in other parts of the universe, and all life, no matter where they locate themselves, will have some kind of existential threat.

There's no guarantee or evidence that there is sentient life in the universe

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by h0l0cube on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:11PM (#24066959)
> You cannot eliminate suffering.

!= improving the collective opportunity to live life without suffering

> There's no guarantee or evidence that there is sentient life in the universe

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24067017

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by ZitchDog on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:06AM (#24059896)
I’m sure you’re right, although I’m not convinced that anything like human consciousness will be reproduced, which is a shame.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by bbojan on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:26PM (#24066721)
How do you know there is life in other parts of the universe?

Do you at least consider a possibility that life originated only once?

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by h0l0cube on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:20PM (#24067017)
Let's say by chance we discover an oracle, that could reveal with perfect certainty whether life existed anywhere else in the universe. I wager, that if I made some non-trivial wager with any other reasonable (and educated) person holding this contrarian view, they would back down before the oracle revealed its answer.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by nfoz on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:36AM (#24059650)
This will sound weird, but I have no idea why anyone cares about the abstract "survival of human species". I care very deeply about the lives of people actually living here right now. But if Earth is wiped out, what does it matter that some humans are alive somewhere? Except of course that I'm glad for them that they didn't get killed. But we're talking about generations from now anyway, and there are more direct ways to stop people from dying here today.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by menybuvico on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:32AM (#24068860)
There is the more generic idea of leaving a track in history, making sure one's offspring survives. If one of my descendants make it off-planet and thrives there once the Zombies attack/the meteor strikes/the nukes go off then my line will continue. I have no logic explanation for wanting to continue my bloodline, but I guess it's just a natural instinct.

The second reason to get off-world is the more far-fetched one, but assuming we can establish that other worlds are dead or sterile then we are free to customize it as we please without having to feel bad about it. In the long run we could leave Earth completely, allowing whomever comes next to develop freely without our intervention.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by swader999 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:10AM (#24061668)
Because our code must live on.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by sekai on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:39AM (#24060138)
Because it's not the end? I think we strive to continue on into the unknown.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by koalala on Thursday August 06, 2020 @04:45AM (#24069196)
Because we are all genetically related, and humans, like most or all organisms, care about their genetic code surviving.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by Koshkin on Thursday August 06, 2020 @09:50AM (#24070826)
It may be not obvious (yet it should be if you think about it), but humans, in a very essential way, are not like most all organisms, and "genetic code surviving" is not our primary concern.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by runawaybottle on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:52AM (#24060238)
Because it’s mostly a lie people tell themselves, similar to ‘I’m sure I am a good person’. How are you so sure?

There’s a lot of evidence that points to the fact that on a global scale, we can barely care about stuff geographically adjacent to us, or worse, socially (class) adjacent to us, but here we are claiming we care about generations beyond us.

Big old lie.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by hnrq on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:54AM (#24060748)
I hate this argument. There is no foreseeable disaster that would make Earth less habitable than any other solar system body. Even if every nuke we have was detonated, it would still be orders of magnitude easier to survive on what remains of Earth than to live in Mars.

I'm not saying there are no existential risks at all, but being on other planets would not make us any more likely to survive to them than to simply being very well isolated on Earth (which would cost 1000x less).

Developing space technology already has all sorts of benefits and it doesn't need this poor argument in its favor.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by menybuvico on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:41AM (#24068899)
Well, there is the question of whether we will ever have the possibility of developing this technology again.

I see no immediate risks to life on Earth, and considering we're quite hard to get rid of, I suspect the human race will be here for quite some time yet. The ability to do a large-scale settlement on other planetary bodies on the other hand, might go away considerably sooner, and who knows if/when we will be able to do it again if we ever end up in a situation where it might be needed.

Regardless, there are other reasons, as you say. For one, space-based manufacturing would allow us to increase the standard of living on Earth without having to worry about things like CO2 levels and pollution. If we start commercializing space then I expect colonization to follow as a natural result of that and we won't have to worry about the more philosophical side.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by nitrogen on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:07PM (#24062359)
Every comment of this nature overlooks the challenge of politics and territory. Any significant social experiment is basically impossible on Earth because every space and person is claimed property by an existing state.

Mars would also offer cultural redundancy. Also, sometimes people choose to do things brcause they are hard.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by sangnoir on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:31PM (#24063323)
> Every comment of this nature overlooks the challenge of politics and territory

If I were a betting person, I'm not sure I'd go all-in on a CEO-Emperor-King of Mars over existing nation-states on Terra

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by UnFleshedOne on Friday August 07, 2020 @11:19AM (#24082801)
Is that a bet on a basically functional society, or a bet on which place is better to live in for individual?
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by pharke on Thursday August 06, 2020 @05:27AM (#24069393)
It's not a matter of Earth becoming uninhabitable. You're right that it would take a lot to do that, though it is possible with a large enough asteroid or some unexpectedly fast acting runaway greenhouse effect. The problem is of human civilization continuing at its current level and continuing to advance. Any number of small disasters could set us back hundreds if not thousands of years. We have direct evidence and record of this happening multiple times throughout human history so we know it can and probably will happen. That's why we need a self-sustaining society elsewhere, preferably far enough away to resist whatever disaster causes Earth to fall.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by UnFleshedOne on Friday August 07, 2020 @11:17AM (#24082778)
But only if you already developed technology needed to survive on mars and have an industrial base not touched by those nukes.

Having a self-sustaining outpost somewhere other than earth is valuable not only for its own sake, but also due to the developed technology and industry and infrastructure implied by its existence.

If tomorrow you suddenly need a huge fleet of fully reusable ships for some reason, the right time to start working on them was 20 years ago, or as soon as basic science and technology level allow.

There are also political risks (we are all too close to each other).

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by Koshkin on Thursday August 06, 2020 @09:56AM (#24070885)
The fact is, and it may sound like a paradox, that, for more than one reason, it is the humans themselves that is the biggest danger to their own existence in the long term.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by reddog on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:32AM (#24060082)
If there was a full scale nuclear war. And then the next week the Yellowstone super volcano erupted. And then the week after that an asteroid as big as the one that killed the dinosaurs hit Eurasia, earth would still be wildly more habitable that Mars.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by stallmanite on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:41PM (#24067672)
And after a collision like the one that created the moon? How habitable during a gamma ray burst?
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by Koshkin on Thursday August 06, 2020 @09:59AM (#24070922)
... and wha' if Earth jus' 'splodes one day... (takes another sip)
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by UnFleshedOne on Friday August 07, 2020 @11:21AM (#24082823)
That's a bit too much, but we still have a few month left in 2020...
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by mensetmanusman on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:44AM (#24060658)
Yes, there is interesting research in evolutionary reasons for human depression, and its role in giving people needed tunnel vision to focus on the self.

Of course, this machinery can be medically disrupted by toxins and genetics (air pollution has an impact for example, lead ions, etc.), but there is a ‘healthy’ reason for depression (similarly there is a ‘healthy’ reason for ‘scabs’ and physical wound healing).

Most people in the modern era with ‘healthy’ depression are medicating away the effect (you will be shocked if you look into the rates of antidepressant usage in France for example), and this diversion can inadvertently prolong the depression as would be expected (e.g. dealing with symptoms and not cause).

Lots of interesting research in this area.

tl;dr yes, depression and depressive thoughts are useful for humans in certain cases, which is why we have them

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by menybuvico on Thursday August 06, 2020 @03:20AM (#24068813)
I'd prefer corporate warfare in the Asteroid belt over international conflicts in Earth.

Regardless, unless we manage to come up with a new system that actually works, chances are that commercialization of space is one of the few ways for us to establish a presence off this planet.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by bluGill on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:10PM (#24062404)
Many of the colonies that make up the US and Canada were at one time controlled by the rich elite of the time. A few hundred years and they rebel to the point nobody even remembers them.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by jdm2212 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @02:49PM (#24064165)
That's actually the backstory of The Expanse. Earth colonized Mars, Mars eventually rebelled, and the resulting Mars-Earth competition to colonize the rest of the solar system drives much of the story.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by sangnoir on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:32PM (#24063333)
I'm not sure why your statement is in the past tense.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by zhoujianfu on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:23AM (#24058124)
For Star Trek we just need SpaceX + UBI!
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by octaveguin on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:35AM (#24058200)
The Expanse also has UBI on earth. With it, most people still lack opportunity and live a rather destitute, powerless life.

Seems like a pretty good perdition of our future, really. UBI recipients with no labor of value to offer won't have power to change their government for long.

It's unfortunate that the authoritarian future of Star Trek probably wouldn't lead to paradise. Or at least, that's how our culture's view of the future has changed.

Both fictions are a product of their time. I still wish we had the optimism of Star Trek now.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by kiba on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @05:52AM (#24058947)
IIRC, UBI in The Expanse is not really UBI, and more like minimum amount of services to keep you viable, and extreme scarcity of training.

There should really be no reason that people can't be trained or educated even if most of the skills are utterly useless in the face of automation.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by h0l0cube on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:35AM (#24059644)
Also The Expanse isn't facts.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by bigbizisverywyz on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @08:22AM (#24059999)
But in some way it may still influence the future.

If the negative aspect of the future portrayed in the Expanse are culturally absorbed, then there is a strong possibility that the people dreaming of and building the future could see that as a road sign to help them avoid that future.

E.g. it makes the point that we would need to work out ways to create better habitats in space and to concentrate on making a workable biosphere where enough food can be cultivated and raised (yes, cows in space) to survive.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by kiba on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:10AM (#24060381)
I find the tropes presented in fiction misleading or unlikely to reflect reality once further examined.

Misleading road signs about the future may be worse than no signs at all.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by zizee on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:00AM (#24058317)
In The Expanse, the main reason for complaint from earthers seems to be caused by overpopulation which leads to difficulty in obtaining realestate and the benefits that landownership brings.

If UBI was implemented as in The Expanse (food, shelter, and meds are free), I would expect the population of the earth to plummet. The UBI would allow for more people to pursue learning and educating others. It has been shown that when people feel safe from threat of violence and starvation, and when they are more educated, the desire to breed decreases.

On the flip side, perhaps knowing that you are off the hook for paying for the expense of many children would increase the desire to reproduce?

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by TomMarius on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @05:25AM (#24058794)
Was it really shown? Is there a single country that did not replace stress of violence and starvation with economic stress? Do we have at least one larger example of what would happen if the general population was rich?
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by mschuster91 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:51AM (#24061426)
> Do we have at least one larger example of what would happen if the general population was rich?

We have birth rate comparison between "first world" and "third world" countries plus migration experience studies (basically, even one generation after migration from a poor to a rich country, there is a massive drop in birth rate, and after something like 3 generations the birth rate is equal to the rest of the country).

Additionally, there is a noticeable drop in birth rates when a whole country gets richer.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by TomMarius on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @11:52AM (#24062177)
What country are you talking about? I don't know a single one where the majority does not feel financially stressed with too many children. (usually more than 3, but even 2 is too much for a lot of people, in many countries for the majority, probably including the United States).
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by nkingsy on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:15PM (#24062469)
The simple explanation for these numbers is that rural children are economically useful, while urban children are a burden.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by jkn on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:04AM (#24058346)
Star Trek's society is collectivist (as all societies are, to a degree), but is it authoritarian?

I suspect that summarizing collectivism as authoritarian is like summarizing libertarianism as selfish: they go well together, but you can also get one without the other.

I don't know Star Trek very well, but as a utopia I guess they imagine a form of collectivism that largely preserves individual freedom? Of course most of the show centers on Starfleet, an authoritarian organisation like any military, which doesn't tell much about the whole society.

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by ncmncm on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @05:55AM (#24058965)
Anything said about libertarianism is necessarily hypothetical, because it has never happened. If it ever did, it would instantly dissolve into something certain to be very unpleasant for almost everyone.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by TomMarius on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @10:53AM (#24061456)
It happened in the United States before the first world war, and continued for a few decades after that. Pretty long time to be called "immediately". While it was unpleasant from our current POV, it was way better than anything else at that time, and didn't end because it dissolved, but because the world wars needed funding.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by ncmncm on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:19PM (#24066671)
I see that you are not up on the Sherman Antitrust Act. Go ahead, I'll wait.

The 1890s demonstrated what a Libertarian regime would dissolve into, instantly: Absolute rule by the biggest dog. It has happened myriad times in human history, from all kinds of pre-conditions. We were lucky, 130 years ago, that the armed forces still believed in voting. Not sure they still do...

Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by ericmay on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @07:10AM (#24059421)
Hmm. Are you sure you understand libertarianism? I’m also unsure of your claim here about “libertarianism” dissolving into something unpleasant. Unpleasant in what way? Why would it “dissolve”?
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by plutonorm on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:55AM (#24058645)
I think the star trek universe is highly democratic.
Re:SpaceX test flight of Starship SN-5 [video] by ben_w on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @06:01AM (#24059002)
Trek is a mirror of Earth geopolitics from an American perspective in whichever year the show was written.

TOS-TNG: Klingons were Soviet-Russian, Romans were Chinese, the Federation was sexist (but much less so in TNG than in TOS) and pretended gay people didn’t even exist.

DS9: Lesbians and trans people exist, but only as exotic outsiders. Bajor feels inspired by Tibeten Buddhism and the final parts of the Northern Ireland Troubles.

VOY: ???

ENT: Nostalgia gone wrong followed by 9/11

DIS/PIC: Oh no Cold War enemies are a threat again / Oh no A.I.