News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by WalterBright on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @07:52PM (#24055787)
It's obvious that planting more trees (lots more trees) are an important component to reducing atmospheric carbon levels.

I'm astonished that there aren't national programs globally aimed at en-forestation.

(Trees also provide building materials - what a great way to sequester carbon!)

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by taylorlapeyre on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @08:37PM (#24056032)
We are working on this at Wren (YC 2019) — reforestation and regenerative agroforestry are very effective methods for sequestering and offsetting carbon. The more people that support these projects, the bigger scale they get.

https://projectwren.com

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by minerjoe on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @11:58PM (#24057134)
"You need to enable JavaScript to run this app."

Wonder what it is about?

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by taylorlapeyre on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:06AM (#24057172)
Trust me, I'd love to create a JavaScript-free version of our app! But for now we are dedicating most of our time to communicating with projects, our users, and generating ideas for making a real impact in the climate crisis.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by minerjoe on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @12:31AM (#24057260)
Not asking for a non-javascript version of your app, just a landing page that doesn't require it to figure out what the heck a wren is and why it matters.

You're using <noscript>, why not use that space to actually talk about what you are doing?

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by chosenbreed37 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:58AM (#24058660)
Having a landing page style content is a great idea in that scenario!
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by jcranmer on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @10:00PM (#24056553)
> (Trees also provide building materials - what a great way to sequester carbon!)

Somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but maybe companies should brand non-recycled paper products as carbon-sequestered paper instead, and tell people to send it to landfill rather than recycle it for maximum sequestration purposes.

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by fiblye on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:27AM (#24057529)
So long as it's from sustainably farmed trees.

Every time I see a pack of paper, it proudly says "MADE IN INDONESIA." So long as cheap paper made from clear-cut rainforests and monkey massacres exists, I think I'd rather stick to (somewhat) locally recycled, even if it's not a perfect solution.

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by OldHand2018 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:57AM (#24060770)
Where are you located? I have a bale of cheap office paper next to my desk, and each ream says "Made in USA, please recycle" on it.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by schoen on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @10:34PM (#24056719)
Landfill might not be totally ideal because if it decomposes there, some of the carbon may eventually leave the landfill if gas is able to escape.

I wonder if we should compost paper instead of recycling it? Or try to vitrify it?

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by mytailorisrich on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:18AM (#24058096)
Paper, like trees, is carbon neutral in the sense that carbon is absorbed then released. Zero net addition to the atmosphere.

Forests can be used to sequester carbon because of the large number of trees continuously in existence even if individual trees come and go.

For paper, the sequestration angle is more dubious but should also be considered based on the total amount of paper continuously in existence, not on the longevity of a single sheet of paper.

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by riffraff on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @02:23AM (#24057832)
you can compost paper, but a lot of it is treated and doesn't decompose very well. E.g. we have a compost heap in our building's garden and someone keeps putting bits of paper bags there, which last years unless you proactively go and try to break them up.

Also, wouldn't composting it release as much carbon as putting it in landfill? And landfills are bad in many ways.

Recycling it seems a better idea.

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by sp332 on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:03AM (#24060324)
Removing oxygen prevents decomposition. My home town found out the hard way when they took samples from an old landfill, expecting to be able to build a park over it. Clay layers had been added to prevent runoff into a nearby river, and as a result the newspapers were still readable decades later.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by moultano on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @11:15PM (#24056937)
It's the wrong order of magnitude. Reforestation can undo the climate impact of deforestation, but that's pretty small.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by _jahh on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:02AM (#24057418)
on what basis, there is easily sufficient reforestation land compared to building for instance solar farms on greenfield
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by moultano on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:23AM (#24057511)
The forests were in equilibrium before we cut them down. At best reforesting them can absorb the amount of carbon it takes to get them back in equilibrium, which is the same amount that was released when they were cut down.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by p1necone on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @10:04PM (#24056572)
Afaik fully developed forests are basically carbon neutral, so it's not a permanent way to offset carbon emissions. However we have a lot of unused, deforested land on this planet so it can be a carbon sink for quite some time.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by dahfizz on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @11:46PM (#24057083)
Mature forests are carbon neutral year over year, but they have a massive amount of carbon sequestered in them at any one time.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by _jahh on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @01:03AM (#24057421)
not to mention the production of humus
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by WalterBright on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @10:18PM (#24056644)
As I noted, mature trees can be cut to provide building materials, and new trees can then sequester more carbon.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by doubleocherry on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @10:08PM (#24056589)
Planting more trees has many benefits to the planet and society, and trees can be a large carbon sink - but planting trees doesn't always help mitigate climate change, and in some cases can exacerbate the problem.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200521-planting-trees-d...

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by thinkingemote on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @09:07AM (#24060354)
If land is left alone, trees will plant themselves! Instead of using humans to plant trees, we should look at why humans are not allowing trees to grow.

Two other issues:

1) Technology is the wrong way at looking at this for most of the planet. It's only in small areas of the globe where nature needs a guiding hand via irrigation and fertilization for example. Just leaving stuff alone will work for most places.

2) Tree planting efforts are great for publicity and marketing which is mainly a human benefit. The urge to meddle and "fix nature" is both a symptom and cause of the situation we got ourselves in.

It's like buying hair transplants on your head when you could just stop shaving.

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by mc32 on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @08:15PM (#24055906)
Exactly, trees are made of carbon sucked out of the CO2. It’s good all around. They sequester the carbon and we get the oxygen.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by wahern on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @08:38PM (#24056034)
Most of the coal and oil we mine comes from a time before microorganisms could efficiently break down lignin and cellulose. Now that such organisms exist, trees alone can only temporarily sequester carbon. I guess planting more trees gives us some small buffer, but even were it significant it's not really a long-term solution.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by epistasis on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @10:35PM (#24056732)
You are very right. We need to use every tool at our disposal over the next few decades if we are going to avoid a climate disaster, and afforestation plays a role in nearly all routes to avoiding that disaster [1].

But that leaves it in the biosphere, and new forest is vulnerable to rapid deforestation and conversion to CO2 (fires, cultural change, etc.). We would ideally shift some of that highly mobile bio-sphere sequestration to far less mobile geologic sequestration. Most likely with technology that we haven't yet invented.

[1] chapter 2, afforestation is part of AFOLU carbon dioxide removal (CDR) https://www.ipcc.ch/sr15/

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by mc32 on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @08:41PM (#24056056)
If you expand forests that’s ongoing sequestration. One doesn’t count rainforests or boreal forests as “zero carbon” capture. They have an ongoing capturing capacity.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by wahern on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @10:03PM (#24056566)
> If you expand forests that’s ongoing sequestration.

If you expand forests it's a one-time sequestration. That's my point.

> One doesn’t count rainforests or boreal forests as “zero carbon” capture. They have an ongoing capturing capacity.

Each ecosystem has a turnover time. For rainforests it's like 20 years. For tundra it's as long as 65+ years. But in a stable state these carbon "sinks" are net zero carbon capture. For every ton of carbon they capture, a ton of carbon is released through decomposition.

A recent study published in 2019 said that if total emissions, agricultural land use, and other factors remained steady, planting trees might buy us 20 years: https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2927/examining-the-viability-o...

The problem is that we're pumping out alot of carbon: about 10GtC/year. The entire Amazon rainforest sequesters only about 100-200GtC. Actually, the biggest problem as I said is that we're pumping out carbon from a resource (Carboniferous period deposits[1]) that can never again be recreated, at least not without significant geoengineering.

[1] Carboniferous deposits occurred at a golden period, immediately after woody trees first emerged, but before microorganisms evolved that could decompose them; trees could be buried long enough to fossilize before microorganisms could release all the carbon back into the atmosphere. That can't happen today naturally, at least not at any scale that could help us.

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by vnorilo on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:35AM (#24058532)
Thank you for the well-argued and rational post. To me, buying 20 years for decarbonization sounds kind of great. So, it's a fallacy to think we could just plant trees and otherwise go on as usual. We just need to be careful about language that might feed into defeatism: planting a lot of trees is not a wasted effort, it's a great thing to do. Yes, we need to do a lot more, but every year of extra time helps a lot.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by WalterBright on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @10:19PM (#24056651)
That's why we sequester the wood by building houses, etc., with it.
Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by wahern on Tuesday August 04, 2020 @11:36PM (#24057042)
The more wood you use, the more inefficient your building methodology given the amount of energy needed for transport, construction, etc, as well as air conditioning, etc. The less wood you use, the less space you create for regrowth. (Indeed, the space taken for building a house is often space where trees could grow, so there's a very simple space trade-off at play.) And none of this factors in the huge amount of wood from demolition that we scrap every year, requiring energy to tear down, and much of which will decompose even in landfills.

Plus, a place like the United States has 0 population growth absent immigration. Are we supposed to start tearing down houses just to build new ones? That's the kind of math that begat corn ethanol.

The dynamics here are just horrible. Can we slow emissions growth this way? Sure. Can we stop growth this way? Eh... okay, maybe, since we're pretending. Can we reverse global warming, removing carbon from the atmosphere? Not a chance. The only way to turn the dynamic from zero sum to positive sum is with other, major technological advances, at which point playing games with trees and home construction would very likely be the least meaningful use of such new technology.

EDIT: Here's a study that looks at various different models for wood processing and disposal. TL;DR: See figures #2 and #3. 100 years post harvest there's at best 5% net carbon sequestration, while most models show 0% net carbon sequestered. https://www.sierraforestlegacy.org/Resources/Conservation/Fi...

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by WalterBright on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @04:41AM (#24058563)
You're arguing it must be a 100% solution or nothing. I doubt there are any 100% solutions. But we only need 10 10% solutions, so I wouldn't be in any hurry to reject even a 1% solution.

Oh, and also, there's always going to be a need for new construction even with 0 population growth. Better to use wood than concrete, as concrete is a large source of carbon emissions.

Re:In a warming world, New England’s trees are storing more ... by wahern on Wednesday August 05, 2020 @03:25PM (#24064516)
Concrete reabsorbs carbon over time, so the net carbon footprint dynamic is not unlike that of wood. See https://www.architectmagazine.com/technology/concrete-become... Concrete's long-term net carbon footprint is simply the fossil fuel energy input minus whatever unoxidized material we dredge up. While theoretically we could manually plant trees and manually bury them in a way to minimize decomposition, we could likewise dig holes to expose and crush unoxidized rock. The former might be marginally more efficient energy-wise than the latter, but the energy consumption dynamics of both fundamentally suck.

I agree, many small solutions can help. More efficient use of existing resources is a large reason why American per capita energy consumption has remained steady for the past decade. (At least if we ignore our outsourced carbon emissions.) But many, small efficiencies is a privilege only rich countries with strong institutions are likely to achieve. Certainly historically that has been the case. Yet such countries have enormous carbon footprints. Similarly, reforestation can be helpful in a strict sense, but our primary problem is deforestation in developing countries, and even with global warming increasing the growth of temperate and boreal forests, it's rather difficult to make up the loss of tropical forests.

More importantly, none of these measures can help nearly as much as nuclear energy or renewables like wind and solar, which are both necessary and at least theoretically sufficient on their own. I think we just need to be clear about the efficacy of various measures. By all means, plant more trees. We can certainly walk & chew gum at the same time. But when people think these activities are even remotely similarly efficacious, and when the lesser one is easier to accomplish policy-wise than the other (e.g. in a country where we've effectively already accomplished an efficient market for wood products), I worry about misdirected attention.

More specifically, we need to discard this widespread notion that trees (naturally, or even in an industrial life cycle) are perpetual carbon sinks. That's really what I was getting at by pointing out the Carboniferous period--that the fundamental dynamic of carbon sequestration by trees does not and cannot work as commonly believed. The article for this thread is interesting (though only experimentally showing what was already well predicted), but it's misguided to believe it's of any consequence in the fight against global warming. The oceans are a different matter, though I don't know how greater is the long-term sequestration potential--I don't think we understand the carbon cycle as well as we do on land; for example, we know less about the microbiota, especially on the ocean floor.