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Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by rayiner on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:15AM (#23974904)
> The public sector isn’t in general unproductive, except maybe in the US where one major party has been working hard to sabotage it for the last 40 years or so.

Do you realize that (1) half of all government spending is at the state and local levels; and (2) many states and cities have been run by “the other party” (not the bad one) for decades? Cities like Chicago, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Baltimore, etc., have been run by Democrats for longer than many posters on HN have been alive. If there was any truth to the notion that the US public sector is poorly managed because “one major party” “sabotages” it you should see a marked difference in the states run by the other party. But you don’t. Indeed, the major population trend in the US is people leaving Democrat-run states and moving to Republican-run states.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tl on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:45AM (#23975112)
Last time I checked, more than the majority of what I pay in taxes go to the federal government, not state or local, where it is re-distributed to other parts of the country most of whom have elected representatives from "the other party" and whose disproportionate representation changed a national election.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by rayiner on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @11:19AM (#23976690)
You're overlooking sales, property, and business taxes that folks don't see directly (e.g. property taxes built into rent), which go to the state and local governments. But overall, about half of all government spending in the U.S. is at the state and local levels: https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/reg_cit_glance-2018-41-e....

For many of the things people complain about (transit, housing, education, policing) 90% of funding and 99% of oversight authority happens at the state and local level. Republicans in national government have pretty much zero say over say affordable housing policy in California. Trying to pin California's failures in those areas on Republicans in Kansas is specious.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by bhupy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:03PM (#23978781)
First of all, you're only talking about income taxes, which as you rightly pointed out are concentrated in the Federal government. Once you factor in property and sales taxes, the distribution is roughly 50-50.

Second of all, even if you only take into account income taxes, Federal income taxes aren't re-distributed to other parts of the country in the way that you think.

The biggest line items in the Federal budget is (in decreasing order) are:

- Social Security

- Medicare + Medicaid

- Defense

Social Security isn't really "distributed" to other parts of the country, it's mostly concentrated in regions where retirees happen to live. Ditto Medicare.

You could argue that Medicaid is "distributed", however it is funded by both States and the Federal government[1].

The comment to which you are replying is correct: most public sector services like education, electricity, water, sewage, libraries, law enforcement, fire departments, etc are all funded predominately at the state and local level.

[1] https://www.kff.org/medicaid/state-indicator/federalstate-sh...

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by knightofmars on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:26PM (#23979061)
Under funding and subsequently under staffing federal organizations to "defang" them or to show them as being ineffective to support a position of reorganization and subsequent merger with another organization to alter who has oversight (as a power play) or to just remove them completely has been a long-time page in the political playbook. This is an sub element of the "starve the beast" approach and has been well documented [1]. To be clear, I'm not here to argue the efficacy of this approach but merely to point out it is real and is happening.

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starve_the_beast

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by JamesBarney on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:31PM (#23979119)
When rayiner says unproductive I think he means inefficient. And understaffing and budget cuts shouldn't drive efficiency lower, if anything they should drive it higher. Similar to how corporations get more efficient after layoffs.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by rayiner on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:44PM (#23980494)
“Starve the beast” is a rhetorical boogeyman. Conservatives tried it, and we just decided to run a structural deficit instead. Nobody’s budget ever gets cut. CDC’s budget, for example, has tripled since 1992, adjusted for inflation.

But my point is, even if you think that phenomenon actually exists in practice rather than theory, shouldn’t Democrat-run state and local-level places be a counter-example? School, police, transit, etc. are all mainly state-level services. In places like Illinois and New York and California, it’s Democrats that set the taxes and Democrats that set the budgets and Democrats that oversee spending. In those places, you should see a marked difference between federal services (where big bad Republicans have a say) and state and local services (where it’s all controlled by a one-party Democratic system). But you don’t.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:16PM (#23977292)
I don't think the case you're trying to make is as clear as you want it to be. Most cities have mayoralties dominated by Democrats; Democrats are the urban party. Pennsylvania has bounced back and forth between the Democrats and Republicans for decades; people are leaving San Francisco because it's too successful. Chicago and Illinois are, to their detriment, run by a Democratic machine, but I think that's the best example you have, and it's not like there aren't basket case Republican states for me to rebut with.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by rayiner on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:59PM (#23980647)
Whenever people point out how poorly government services are run everywhere in America, someone replies (like OP) that it’s because Republicans “sabotage” the operation of government. My point isn’t that Republicans could run it better; my point is that you can’t blame dysfunctional government on Republican “sabotage” when so many state and local government services controlled by Democrats is also dysfunctional.

We’re seeing this happen with police. Police funding and administration is almost entirely a local matter. If Chicago PD is running CIA-style interrogation sites (or what’s happening in Baltimore or Atlanta or Minneapolis) you can’t blame Republicans. If schools aren’t good or transit is bad, or housing is expensive, you can’t blame Republican “sabotage.”

It’s a perverse argument. It’s saying to disregard Democrats’ obvious failures to run government services—it would all be better if you just gave Democrats more power. (That is not to say that Republicans would run things better. For the most part, they wouldn’t even claim to, and would point to that as justification for doing less. My recently-red/trending purple Maryland county has pretty good government services, but mostly because it doesn’t try to do much.)

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:10PM (#23980745)
That you are wrong about small pieces of this is what makes your comments interesting. :)

I take your broader point that it's unproductive to pin the productivity concerns of the public sector on Republicans; especially in state government, I probably agree with you in sort of assigning good governance and management to the GOP, and expanding public employment and benefit rolls to Democrats.

But, like, I think you'll have a hard time making the argument that run amok policing isn't at least somewhat attributable to Republican voters. It's not "sabotage", in the mostly-mythical Grover Norquist sense, but it's a public policy mistake they mostly own.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by rayiner on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:31PM (#23980918)
> But, like, I think you'll have a hard time making the argument that run amok policing isn't at least somewhat attributable to Republican voters. It's not "sabotage", in the mostly-mythical Grover Norquist sense, but it's a public policy mistake they mostly own.

I’m not sure I understand. Baltimore just revealed a new budget that contains zero cuts to the police budget.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by rayiner on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:15PM (#23982119)
Blarg. Half thought. I mean, Baltimore just revealed a budget that contains zero police cuts. All 15 council members are Democrats. How is this Republicans’ fault?
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by bhupy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:18PM (#23978982)
You can massage the data to tell any story you want.

To your point about city mayoralties, on average, Republican-led metros have lower inequality and higher cost-of-living-adjusted incomes than Democrat-led metros[1][2].

There isn't really a strong correlation between successful government and the predominant governing party. What you'll find is that things are not so simple that you can pin all of our problems on a single party in a neatly packaged way.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/why-are...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/13/upshot/red-blue-diverging...

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by Ma8ee on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:18PM (#23980213)
> To your point about city mayoralties, on average, Republican-led metros have lower inequality and higher cost-of-living-adjusted incomes than Democrat-led metros[1][2].

Isn't it just that they are smaller and less successful?

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by bhupy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:23PM (#23980266)
There doesn't appear to be a size/population correlation.

> less successful?

That depends on what your criteria for "success" is. San Francisco has among the highest per capita GDP of any city in the Union as well as a thriving technology economy, but also has the highest rate of homelessness, as well as the highest percentage of people living below the poverty line. What does "success" mean?

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:01PM (#23980665)
It seems a little weak, for instance, to call out the success of Provo, which is indeed Republican-led, but is part of the Democratic-led SLC combined statistical area. Yes: lots of suburbs and exurbs are Republican-led! They're also drafting off the larger economies of other urban areas.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:14PM (#23980779)
I'm not sure that it's fair to say that Provo is drafting off of the Salt Lake economy. It's not just a bedroom community for Salt Lake; it's got its own universities (plural), hospitals, and tech scene. About the only thing it doesn't have is an airport.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:33PM (#23980940)
It's as far from SLC as Elgin is from Chicago. Claremont has a bunch of different colleges; it's still part of LA metro. The point is that Provo wouldn't have the economic advantages it's taking advantage of without the economy of SLC in close proximity.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:47PM (#23981035)
All true. And yet, Provo is far more independent than your examples, both geographically and socially/economically.

How big is Claremont? How big is the LA metro area? How big is Elgin compared to Chicago? Provo is maybe half as big as Salt Lake.

When you're in Claremont, and you want a night out, do you stay in Claremont? Do you in Elgin? In Provo, you're more likely to stay local than go up to Salt Lake. As I said, it's geographically more distinct, but there's also a more insular mindset. "Claremont" is a legal entity, and it's a collection of colleges, but it's not much of an entity in peoples' minds. It's just part of the LA metro area, sharing LA's smog. Provo, in contrast, has a separate identity from Salt Lake, and even has separate smog.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:55PM (#23981091)
Provo is about as big as Elgin, which also has a separate identity from Chicago (as, of course, does Claremont).

Colorado Springs is probably the better example for the argument.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:26PM (#23981343)
All right, let me put it this way. Provo isn't just a suburb of Salt Lake. Provo has its own suburbs (most of Utah County). Claremont doesn't. (I don't know about Elgin.)

Colorado Springs does. It has a much more independent existence. It's across the Palmer Divide from Denver. It probably depends on the Air Force at least as much as it depends on Denver. In the same way, Provo probably depends on BYU as much as it depends on Salt Lake. (Whereas Elgin and Claremont are much more tied in to Chicago and LA, respectively.)

How many residents of Elgin work in Elgin? I suspect the fraction is much higher in Provo (and Colorado Springs).

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by bhupy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:26PM (#23980869)
The data from the linked articles explicitly compares urban centers, not suburbs/exurbs.

And also, as another commenter pointed out, suburbs/exurbs can also be net producers themselves.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:29PM (#23980904)
I took Provo from the lede of the article you provided.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:59PM (#23979422)
I agree, at least with regards to local politics.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by JamesBarney on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:41PM (#23979230)
Are people leaving San Francisco because the city government is too successful? That doesn't seem to be my understanding from reading and talking to people from that city.

It seems to me the biggest reason people are leaving San Francisco seems to be the rent is too damn high which is a pretty straightforward effect of the city's housing policies.

I think it's pretty clear that the Republicans party doesn't have a monopoly on poorly run government at the city and state level. (At the federal level there does seem to be a large gap in the ability to govern between parties.)

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by idlewords on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:31PM (#23982216)
One small correction, which is that the housing crisis in SF is a function of the region's housing policies, not just the city's failures. Some of the governance problems here are just structural, that there's no one with authority to tell Palo Alto that they can't be a leafy suburb anymore and need to build high-rises.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by TheCoelacanth on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:52PM (#23980579)
Local spending is generally where I see the most obvious productivity from government spending.

Local government spending is what educates the children, paves the roads, keeps my house from burning down or getting robbed, runs the parks and libraries, etc.