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Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @12:16PM (#23977292)
I don't think the case you're trying to make is as clear as you want it to be. Most cities have mayoralties dominated by Democrats; Democrats are the urban party. Pennsylvania has bounced back and forth between the Democrats and Republicans for decades; people are leaving San Francisco because it's too successful. Chicago and Illinois are, to their detriment, run by a Democratic machine, but I think that's the best example you have, and it's not like there aren't basket case Republican states for me to rebut with.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by rayiner on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:59PM (#23980647)
Whenever people point out how poorly government services are run everywhere in America, someone replies (like OP) that it’s because Republicans “sabotage” the operation of government. My point isn’t that Republicans could run it better; my point is that you can’t blame dysfunctional government on Republican “sabotage” when so many state and local government services controlled by Democrats is also dysfunctional.

We’re seeing this happen with police. Police funding and administration is almost entirely a local matter. If Chicago PD is running CIA-style interrogation sites (or what’s happening in Baltimore or Atlanta or Minneapolis) you can’t blame Republicans. If schools aren’t good or transit is bad, or housing is expensive, you can’t blame Republican “sabotage.”

It’s a perverse argument. It’s saying to disregard Democrats’ obvious failures to run government services—it would all be better if you just gave Democrats more power. (That is not to say that Republicans would run things better. For the most part, they wouldn’t even claim to, and would point to that as justification for doing less. My recently-red/trending purple Maryland county has pretty good government services, but mostly because it doesn’t try to do much.)

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:10PM (#23980745)
That you are wrong about small pieces of this is what makes your comments interesting. :)

I take your broader point that it's unproductive to pin the productivity concerns of the public sector on Republicans; especially in state government, I probably agree with you in sort of assigning good governance and management to the GOP, and expanding public employment and benefit rolls to Democrats.

But, like, I think you'll have a hard time making the argument that run amok policing isn't at least somewhat attributable to Republican voters. It's not "sabotage", in the mostly-mythical Grover Norquist sense, but it's a public policy mistake they mostly own.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by rayiner on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:31PM (#23980918)
> But, like, I think you'll have a hard time making the argument that run amok policing isn't at least somewhat attributable to Republican voters. It's not "sabotage", in the mostly-mythical Grover Norquist sense, but it's a public policy mistake they mostly own.

I’m not sure I understand. Baltimore just revealed a new budget that contains zero cuts to the police budget.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by rayiner on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:15PM (#23982119)
Blarg. Half thought. I mean, Baltimore just revealed a budget that contains zero police cuts. All 15 council members are Democrats. How is this Republicans’ fault?
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by bhupy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:18PM (#23978982)
You can massage the data to tell any story you want.

To your point about city mayoralties, on average, Republican-led metros have lower inequality and higher cost-of-living-adjusted incomes than Democrat-led metros[1][2].

There isn't really a strong correlation between successful government and the predominant governing party. What you'll find is that things are not so simple that you can pin all of our problems on a single party in a neatly packaged way.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/why-are...

[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/13/upshot/red-blue-diverging...

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by Ma8ee on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:18PM (#23980213)
> To your point about city mayoralties, on average, Republican-led metros have lower inequality and higher cost-of-living-adjusted incomes than Democrat-led metros[1][2].

Isn't it just that they are smaller and less successful?

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by bhupy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @04:23PM (#23980266)
There doesn't appear to be a size/population correlation.

> less successful?

That depends on what your criteria for "success" is. San Francisco has among the highest per capita GDP of any city in the Union as well as a thriving technology economy, but also has the highest rate of homelessness, as well as the highest percentage of people living below the poverty line. What does "success" mean?

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:01PM (#23980665)
It seems a little weak, for instance, to call out the success of Provo, which is indeed Republican-led, but is part of the Democratic-led SLC combined statistical area. Yes: lots of suburbs and exurbs are Republican-led! They're also drafting off the larger economies of other urban areas.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:14PM (#23980779)
I'm not sure that it's fair to say that Provo is drafting off of the Salt Lake economy. It's not just a bedroom community for Salt Lake; it's got its own universities (plural), hospitals, and tech scene. About the only thing it doesn't have is an airport.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:33PM (#23980940)
It's as far from SLC as Elgin is from Chicago. Claremont has a bunch of different colleges; it's still part of LA metro. The point is that Provo wouldn't have the economic advantages it's taking advantage of without the economy of SLC in close proximity.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:47PM (#23981035)
All true. And yet, Provo is far more independent than your examples, both geographically and socially/economically.

How big is Claremont? How big is the LA metro area? How big is Elgin compared to Chicago? Provo is maybe half as big as Salt Lake.

When you're in Claremont, and you want a night out, do you stay in Claremont? Do you in Elgin? In Provo, you're more likely to stay local than go up to Salt Lake. As I said, it's geographically more distinct, but there's also a more insular mindset. "Claremont" is a legal entity, and it's a collection of colleges, but it's not much of an entity in peoples' minds. It's just part of the LA metro area, sharing LA's smog. Provo, in contrast, has a separate identity from Salt Lake, and even has separate smog.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:55PM (#23981091)
Provo is about as big as Elgin, which also has a separate identity from Chicago (as, of course, does Claremont).

Colorado Springs is probably the better example for the argument.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @06:26PM (#23981343)
All right, let me put it this way. Provo isn't just a suburb of Salt Lake. Provo has its own suburbs (most of Utah County). Claremont doesn't. (I don't know about Elgin.)

Colorado Springs does. It has a much more independent existence. It's across the Palmer Divide from Denver. It probably depends on the Air Force at least as much as it depends on Denver. In the same way, Provo probably depends on BYU as much as it depends on Salt Lake. (Whereas Elgin and Claremont are much more tied in to Chicago and LA, respectively.)

How many residents of Elgin work in Elgin? I suspect the fraction is much higher in Provo (and Colorado Springs).

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by bhupy on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:26PM (#23980869)
The data from the linked articles explicitly compares urban centers, not suburbs/exurbs.

And also, as another commenter pointed out, suburbs/exurbs can also be net producers themselves.

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @05:29PM (#23980904)
I took Provo from the lede of the article you provided.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by tptacek on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:59PM (#23979422)
I agree, at least with regards to local politics.
Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by JamesBarney on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @02:41PM (#23979230)
Are people leaving San Francisco because the city government is too successful? That doesn't seem to be my understanding from reading and talking to people from that city.

It seems to me the biggest reason people are leaving San Francisco seems to be the rent is too damn high which is a pretty straightforward effect of the city's housing policies.

I think it's pretty clear that the Republicans party doesn't have a monopoly on poorly run government at the city and state level. (At the federal level there does seem to be a large gap in the ability to govern between parties.)

Re:We Don’t Need to Work So Much (2015) by idlewords on Tuesday July 28, 2020 @08:31PM (#23982216)
One small correction, which is that the housing crisis in SF is a function of the region's housing policies, not just the city's failures. Some of the governance problems here are just structural, that there's no one with authority to tell Palo Alto that they can't be a leafy suburb anymore and need to build high-rises.