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Re:Orthodox Privilege by hintymad on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @12:48PM (#23847875)
Or worse, if you hold idea X, Y, or Z, then you're a racist. See this: https://twitter.com/byronyork/status/1283372233730203651?s=2...

"The National Museum of African American History & Culture wants to make you aware of certain signs of whiteness: Individualism, hard work, objectivity, the nuclear family, progress, respect for authority, delayed gratification, more."Oh, and emphasis on scientific methods.

So, for the sake of identity, let's attack modern civilization. This. Is. Fucking. Insane.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by escape_goat on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:14PM (#23848246)
There is a lot — a LOT — to criticize about the infographic tweeted by Byron York here (based on a table produced by Judith Katz in 1990) and frankly this entire page [1] of relentlessly abstracted and ahistorical discussion of 'Whiteness' and cultural identity is a dumpster fire even from the perspective it is attempting to communicate, and I am shocked to see scholarship of this quality featured at the Smithsonian.

However, absolutely nothing about it suggests that "internalizing aspects of white culture" makes you a racist. It's fine if you don't respect or understand the idea that the web page is trying to communicate here because frankly they did a shamefully bad job. They are preaching to the choir. But absolutely nothing about it suggests the thing that angers you. You are bringing that idea to the infographic with you.

[1] https://nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiten...

Re:Orthodox Privilege by everdrive on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:37PM (#23848654)
I think this is a big problem, though. If someone could really convince me that everything on the info-graphic was "Whiteness," I don't see how I could possibly draw a non-racist conclusion. Clearly this is false, and people who are not white can enjoy hard work and the scientific method. But once again, suppose I believed the info-graphic? This is just insanity.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by rovolo on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @02:55PM (#23849925)
I think you're assuming the infographic is saying "non-white people can't share these values". I see it as saying "non-white people are punished if they don't share these values" or "non-white people are punished by saying they don't share these values".

The easiest bullet point to see this distinction for is "Christianity is the norm". It's not saying that being Christian makes you white, but that white people in the US made Christianity the norm. For example, people tried to cast Obama as un-American by claiming he was Muslim.

A longer bullet point to explain is the Scientific Method, but I'll take a shot at that one too. Science is a way to seek truth and reduce bias. However, the people who practice science are not fully objective actors free from bias. For example, evolution is absolutely true, but social darwinism is how many people understood evolution. A scientific truth was used to support a political position. People who would complain about inequalities could be said to be anti-scientific because they were arguing against the natural social order. Science itself isn't the issue, it's people using science to reject individual stories or support their priors.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by SiVal on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:05PM (#23851805)
Sorry, but there's a simpler way to see it for what it is: Just imagine replacing white with black. Each time an organization publishes one of these "problems of xness" or "dismantling xness" or "confronting xness" or "Dear X people" or tells "x people" how to "do better" or requires all (and only) "x people" to attend a seminar to criticize themselves or tells children in public school that "x people" are guilty of <whatever> and need to be corrected in some way, etc., etc., just imagine replacing "white" with "black" and imagine how quick and explosive the response would be by those in power in the West. The culprits responsible would be instantly labeled racists, publicly and loudly denounced, and fired.

So whatever that infographic is, if the people who wrote it would consider it a racist attack if someone else did it and used "black" instead of "white", it tells you how they really intend it, regardless of how they might edit the definition of "racism".

Re:Orthodox Privilege by rovolo on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @07:03PM (#23853466)
Are you saying that "dismantling White supremacy" would have been racist in the 1960s because "dismantling Black supremacy" wouldn't have made sense?

Black and White are not interchangeable. For your rule of thumb to make sense, you'd have to believe that Black and White people experience the US in the same way.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by SiVal on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:47PM (#23854416)
No, it doesn't require that the groups be interchangeable. The point is that if something would be a racist attack if directed at one race, it would have the same nature if directed at any race. If it would be just a non-racist statement of fact that is critical of one race, it would be the same no matter which race it was directed at.

People will argue over the facts, naturally. That's as it should be. But if you are encouraged to criticize one race without penalty, whether the criticism is factually correct or not, but you aren't allowed to criticize another without being guilty of "racism", whether the criticism is factually correct or not, it's not about the facts. It's about who you can criticize and who you can't, regardless of your specific claims or evidence.

In other words, if you want to judge its nature, swap races. If the only thing that would happen if you swapped races is someone would say, "well then that wouldn't be factually correct", then it IS just about facts. But if instead, those in power would rage about racism and punish the "offender", they are not merely disputing facts. Something else is happening.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by comex on Thursday July 16, 2020 @02:05AM (#23856263)
> It's about who you can criticize and who you can't, regardless of your specific claims or evidence.

Suppose you criticize someone for being slow at reading. It's not the nicest thing to say, but it's run of the mill as criticisms go. But then suppose you criticize someone for being slow at reading who has dyslexia. That would be considered extremely insensitive and rude, even if it's factually correct.

Suppose you say "I screwed up". Pretty unremarkable; self-deprecation is common in our culture, and people won't consider it a sign you're being too hard on yourself, unless the mistake you made was extremely minor or harmless. But then suppose you say "You screwed up". That would be considered far too aggressive and direct for most situations.

Of course it matters who you're criticizing.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by throwaway309182 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @07:16PM (#23853605)
You are making the assumption that everyone reading these statements about "White" and "Black" are American.

Even if it is Americans making these statements in an American context, the Internet and the media broadcasts them to the rest of the planet.

You have to think, not just about whether they make sense in an American context, but also whether they make sense in the non-American contexts in which they are being received.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by rovolo on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:00PM (#23854020)
The National Museum of African American History & Culture is an American institution. The tweeter Bryan York lives in Washington DC.

Your other comment about the Australian experience was interesting and it's useful when comparing the US to the rest of the world. However, it feels like you're trying to say I'm off topic because I'm discussing an American document and an American reaction by using American history.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by throwaway309182 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:08PM (#23854094)
I'm not saying what you are saying is off-topic. I'm just trying to share with you a different perspective.

This American talk about "whiteness" doesn't just get posted in an American museum. It gets posted on Twitter etc and then people on the other side of the planet read it. And the people on the other side of the planet may understand it very differently. But Americans never seem to think about that. (And I'm not saying the concept of "whiteness" might not have some application or usefulness in other countries, including Australia-but it certainly doesn't have an identical application.)

Or, maybe one is a non-US-based employee of a US-based multinational company, and the company leadership starts promoting all this talk to the entire company, without seeming to ever stop to think about how much sense it makes in a non US-context. (But would any non-American employees dare raise the question of how US-centric the biases of its US-based management are?)

Re:Orthodox Privilege by SiVal on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:06PM (#23854553)
Yes, my relatives in China are amused by this. Most people in most places have defined "racism" to mean the judgment that a person is bad in some way merely because of his or her race, regardless of any personal characteristics. But in recent years, Western leftists have edited the definition to make it race-specific, (un)ironically. You can only be guilty of it if you are white. If you aren't white, no matter what you say about or do to another race, it might be bad, but it can't be racist. The justification is that racism is about power, and whites are in charge, so only they can be racist.

So, my relatives want to know, are the baizuo (white leftists) claiming that in China, nothing white people say about or do to Chinese or blacks can be racist? Or are they claiming that they are actually "in charge" of us in China?

Re:Orthodox Privilege by loopz on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @11:39PM (#23855498)
Instead of race, look at power structures and how they support opportunity for groups of people. Thoughtcrime is not worth the efforts.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by everdrive on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:49PM (#23850686)
>I think you're assuming the info-graphic is saying "non-white people can't share these values". I see it as saying "non-white people are punished if they don't share these values" or "non-white people are punished by saying they don't share these values".

Then why call them white at all? Is his a cultural, or a racial definition? Do you believe the two can be separated?

>A longer bullet point to explain is the Scientific Method, but I'll take a shot at that one too. Science is a way to seek truth and reduce bias. However, the people who practice science are not fully objective actors free from bias. For example, evolution is absolutely true, but social darwinism is how many people understood evolution. A scientific truth was used to support a political position. People who would complain about inequalities could be said to be anti-scientific because they were arguing against the natural social order. Science itself isn't the issue, it's people using science to reject individual stories or support their priors.

I'm honestly not sure how to respond to this. It sounds like you mean to say that science was sometimes used in a biased way. This may be true in some sense, but it's not clear that this has anything to do with the scientific method itself being a "white value."

Re:Orthodox Privilege by rovolo on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:05PM (#23851817)
> Then why call them white at all? Is his a cultural, or a racial definition? Do you believe the two can be separated?

White is a cultural definition in the US which used to be legally defined and still carries cultural implications. It is intrinsically tied to race because race is also culturally defined. The US's "one drop" rule defined people's race as Black even if the vast majority of their ancestry was "White European".

As an analogy, consider the names we give various colors. We can tell that light blue and dark blue are different colors, but in English we will default to calling them both 'Blue'. In Russian, you cannot call those two the same color. There is a continuous gradient of colors, and we divide those colors into different named categories due to culture.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_term#Basic_color_terms

Culture determines racial boundaries as well, since there are no clear genetic/cultural dividing lines between the "races". Slavs used to be excluded from Whiteness in the US because they were considered "Asiatic", but now we consider Slavs "White".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_whiteness_in_th...

So to answer your questions, "White" is a cultural concept which is used to define racial boundaries in the US.

> it's not clear that this has anything to do with the scientific method itself being a "white value."

The scientific method is not a "white value", but whiteness values scientific data over interpersonal opinions. One example would be: "IQ tests show that Black people are dumber than White people, and that explains why there is an income gap". You would be elevating scientific data over personal narratives of schooling and job discrimination.

I'm not saying that science is bad, what I'm saying is that science is a combination of technical and cultural aspects. The bullet point is referencing the cultural motivations and impacts of science more than the technical aspects.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by everdrive on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:05AM (#23858576)
>White is a cultural definition in the US which used to be legally defined and still carries cultural implications.

Right, but this was a bad time. We should be moving on from this. The infographic apparently does the opposite: reinvigorates, and then accidentally claims that white traits are mostly superior. I know you're going to claim that there are not value judgements in the info graphic, but the opposite of hard work, individualism, and the scientific method are in fact bad things. (And, even if you're non-white, the Greco-Roman heritage is in fact a large part of how the American system of government came to be.

I'm trying to be constructive because we're on hn, but I have to say I'm absolutely disgusted by the modern tendency to reduce everything to race. The color of someone's skin is not important, and people of the same skin color don't all share the same values. More importantly, racial groups cannot "own" values such as hard work, and formal logic.

"White" is not a cultural concept. People on the new left are trying to make it a cultural concept, and it's backwards and racist.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by rovolo on Thursday July 16, 2020 @11:12AM (#23859797)
> We should be moving on from this. … I'm absolutely disgusted by the modern tendency to reduce everything to race. The color of someone's skin is not important … "White" is not a cultural concept.

You can't discuss racism without discussing race and skin color. I'm trying to think of why you wouldn't think talking about race would be helpful, and this is what I came up with: race isn't a problem in modern America; discussing race causes racism; or examining race & racism creates racial differences.

> but the opposite of hard work, individualism, and the scientific method are in fact bad things.

These are good traits, but their "opposites" aren't inherently bad.

- Hard work is the key to success; "work smarter not harder"

- The individual is the primary unit; cooperation and mutual assistance.

- Scientific Method: "Quantitative Emphasis"; qualitative readings of personal narratives such as interviews.

> accidentally claims that white traits are mostly superior

This is addressed in the webpage, and is the entire point of the graphic. "Racism is perpetuated by deeming whiteness as superior and other racial and ethnic groups as inferior. … [The superior traits] describes the experience and attitudes of those who are members of the dominant, privileged, or powerful identity groups."

The infographic is asking you to examine why you think these traits are superior. That doesn't mean they're inferior, but they aren't the best in every situation either.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by everdrive on Tuesday July 21, 2020 @08:42AM (#23906379)
It tells us that the distinctive characteristics of “whiteness” and “white culture” include:

    Hard work
    “Delayed gratification”
    Planning for the future
    The “nuclear family”
    Rational thinking
    Promptness
    Politeness
    “Decision-making”
    Personal responsibility
    Speaking standard English
It's a racist document, and its supporters, no matter how well intending, are racist.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by throwaway309182 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:40PM (#23852321)
> White is a cultural definition in the US which used to be legally defined and still carries cultural implications.

I guess where some non-Americans feel concerned about this, is the tendency to export US discourses about race to the rest of the English-speaking world (and even the world more broadly), despite the fact that other countries have different histories and cultures and understanding of what the words mean.

The Australian Human Rights Commission recommends analysing racial and cultural diversity in Australia in terms of four broad categories [1] – Indigenous, Anglo-Celtic, European, and non-European. ("European" is defined to exclude Anglo-Celtic people.) Slightly reminiscent of the American "one drop rule", people of mixed backgrounds are assigned to the more diverse background. By contrast, the US has an official classification of people into five different races [2].

Australia does have a rather horrible history of racial discrimination – for example, the "White Australia Policy" which for decades banned non-European immigration. However, I think the way Australian officialdom (governments, academics, etc) have tried to deal with that, is to avoid using racial categories like "white", and focus primarily on culture and multiculturalism. They are happy to talk about different ancestries/nationalities/cultures (Italian, Chinese, Indian, Lebanese, etc), but grouping them into racial categories is avoided in official contexts, although it still sometimes happens in less formal contexts. (Journalists sometimes talk about "Asian Australians" or "African Australians", but the government prefers to talk about Chinese and Filipinos and Sudanese and Eritreans.) When it is necessary, they'll split them into not explicitly racial groupings like Indigenous/Anglo-Celtic/European/non-European. That splits two groups of people both considered "white" in the US (Anglo-Celtic and European), while lumping together as non-European both some people officially considered "white" in the US (e.g. Lebanese people), and also multiple non-"white" races (Asian, African, Pacific Islander).

I think Australia's ways of dealing with its history are at times quite different from those of Americans, precisely because their histories are in many ways quite different. But I think many Americans unconsciously assume that understandings of race and culture that make sense in a US context must make sense for the rest of the world as well.

[1] https://humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/document/publ...

[2] https://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html

(Throwaway because I'm scared of talking about race and culture using my real name.)

Re:Orthodox Privilege by skissane on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:03PM (#23851779)
> The easiest bullet point to see this distinction for is "Christianity is the norm". It's not saying that being Christian makes you white, but that white people in the US made Christianity the norm. For example, people tried to cast Obama as un-American by claiming he was Muslim.

Were the Obama religion conspiracy theories being driven by "Christianity is the norm", or by Islamophobia? Suppose, counterfactually, that instead of a nominally Muslim father and stepfather, his father and stepfather had been Jews or Hindus or Buddhists? And, likewise, suppose, that instead of spending some of his childhood in majority Muslim Indonesia, he'd spent it in Israel or Nepal or Thailand? And, suppose instead of an Arabic-derived middle name, he had a middle name derived from Hebrew or Sanskrit or Pali?

An "Obama is a secret Hindu" or "Obama is a secret Buddhist" conspiracy theory would have had far less steam, because whatever misconceptions the average American likely has about those religions, far less Americans fear them than fear Islam.

And "Obama is a secret Jew" would have struggled because it sounds antisemitic, and antisemitism is far more taboo in American culture than Islamophobia is.

Anti-Muslim sentiment in American culture is largely specific to Islam, most of it is not driven by some generic "hate everyone who isn't Christian" sentiment.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by thephyber on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:42PM (#23852357)
It's not nearly as simple as just "anti-Islam" or even "Christianity is the norm". It's a meta-religion that bridges multiple sects of Christianity and even more secular Americans who identify with Christianity as solely a philosophy.

The same propaganda machine that labelled Obama "a socialist Muslim Kenyan agent and anti-Christ" also assassinated the character of Bill and Hillary for 30 years (including attributing something like 40 murders to them) and later credited them with the "under age sex trade ring" (queue PizzaGate and the QAnon canon). Then they attacked Obama's birth certificate. The same thing happened with Obama's advisers (eg. Valerie Jarrett).

It's a power play by politically-biased news sources which convince people of conspiracies. The details are irrelevant because the conspiracies that don't gain traction are left behind and the propaganda evolves. The only details that matter are the ones that best apply to Confirmation Bias.

The NYTimes has a podcast called RabbitHole[1] which describes how this works so well on the internet and reverse engineers how a YouTube visitor was radicalized and later rejected his previous radicalization views.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/column/rabbit-hole

Re:Orthodox Privilege by skissane on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @06:00PM (#23852647)
Conspiracy theories do have a pseudo-religious character, but I'm not sure there is anything specifically Christian about the phenomenon. Many Christians, even conservative Christians, disagree with them. Conversely, conspiracy theories (albeit mostly different ones) are popular in countries where Christians are a small minority, see for example https://thearabweekly.com/why-conspiracy-theories-thrive-mid...
Re:Orthodox Privilege by thephyber on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:56PM (#23854471)
I intended to focus more on the fact that it's not simply just an "anti-Islam" intention.

The fact that there are a plethora of conspiracy theories in the ideology and that it's largely people who identify as Christian or are pro-Christian seem tangential to me.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by bad_user on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:29PM (#23850434)
The scientific method means coming up with hypotheses that get validated via experiments, whose conclusions are reported and undergo peer review. And we generally have a pretty good idea about how strong the evidence is, or about how well a theory predicts the universe.

The "natural social order" for humans isn't scientific because there is none that we can identify, unlike in animals with much simpler social structures. Social Darwinism isn't based on evidence, being promoted by quacks that are anti-science.

You're trying to draw a distinction where there is none.

Science is the way to seek truth. And yes, we should use scientific evidence to reject anecdotes, if that evidence is strong enough. Not sure what you mean in your last sentence but it sounds wrong to me.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by brnt on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:27PM (#23851231)
Up two the last sentence you seem to be in perfect agreement. The last sentence merely adds that the actors in science may color their studies, results, interpretations, to make unscientific points. Many a scientist thought they were proving differences in e.g. intelligence between the races, up to and including some of the Nazi's horrors. Doing in vivo lobotomies to show Jews are inferior may be scientific, but that is very far besides the point.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by hintymad on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:20PM (#23848331)
Actually, you may well be right. The infographics didn’t explicitly judge “whiteness”. I may indeed have brought the idea with me given how whiteness is used and connotated nowadays.

I hope I’m totally wrong about my interpretation about the infographics and I hope my frustration is unsubstantiated.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by Digory on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @06:20PM (#23852973)
The logic of the page containing the graphic is this:

1. "Whiteness and white racialized identity refer to the way that white people, their customs, culture, and beliefs operate as the standard..."

2. "Whiteness (and its accepted normality)... communicate hostile, derogatory, or harmful messages." [ed. because whiteness causes microagressions.]

3. "Racism is perpetuated by deeming whiteness as superior and other racial and ethnic groups as inferior."

4. "White supremacy is an ideology where white people are believed to be superior to nonwhite people."

5. "[I]nternalized racism, [] happens when an oppressed group believes the racial views that society communicates are true, and they act as if they were true."

So, if the graphic isn't clearly critical, the page is. If you hold the "white" ideas in the graphic as "superior," that is to hold "whiteness" superior. Holding whiteness superior is the definition of "white supremacy." If you hold these "whiteness" views as a minority, it is because you have internalized racism -- the "whiteness" has colonized your mind.

Families. Science. Christianity. Hard Work. Democracy. If you think any of these are superior, it's "white supremacy." If it's not properly nuanced, this is how it's being churned out for the masses.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by escape_goat on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:28PM (#23848469)
It's frustrating because the style of the entire page is completely consonant with the thing that it is trying to describe.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by x3n0ph3n3 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:39PM (#23848684)
By calling it whiteness, it implicitly discourages "brown" people from adopting the enumerated values.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by scruple on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:43PM (#23848777)
I am unsure how else to parse it, too. Is this infographic telling black children that "doing science" is "acting white?" This entire infographic reads like white supremacist rhetoric. What the hell...
Re:Orthodox Privilege by Acrobatic_Road on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:58PM (#23849036)
White nationalist Jared Taylor has repeatedly stressed that the woke left is doing his work for him.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by zuminator on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:12PM (#23851911)
Why? I don't think that it's really even speaking to the individual values. My interpretation is that it's making the (unsupported) assertion that the entirety of those values represent the pinnacle of what appears to be normal or culturally appropriate, from the perspective of typical white Americans. So for example, if you say to a white American, "tomorrow will be better," that's an uncontroversial position to take. Or, "my kids each have their own bedroom," seems like a fairly normal and uncontroversial expectation. Whereas if your behavior goes broadly against these norms, say, "My kids all sleep in the bed with me," or "I just go with the flow, professional advancement doesn't interest me," then you will seem out of step with what (white) society deems as most appropriate. It's not saying that all of these values are exclusively the purview of white Americans, nor is it saying there's anything wrong with these values. To the extent that anything is implicitly discouraged, I would venture that it discourages taking for granted that cultures that diverge from this specific value set are inherently defective.

Also, this comes from 1990. A lot has changed since then. Maybe it's not quite as controversial to be non-Judeo-Christian, for example.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by philwelch on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:40PM (#23848700)
That’s only really meaningful if you can somehow separate that from all the rhetoric about “dismantling whiteness”. A lot of this rhetoric is fine in isolation but works a lot differently once you start assembling different pieces of it.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by steve_g on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:07PM (#23851851)
I don't agree with you on this. Let me ask you, are there connotations in the word choices that make you think of "whiteness" in a certain way? Do you think the infographic treats whiteness as: - something to celebrate? - a set of beliefs and attitudes with no associated value judgment? Neutral? - something to work on in yourself? Something to be a little ashamed about?

I think the infographic connotes a negative view of whiteness, and that translates to racist, IMO. -

Re:Orthodox Privilege by vidarh on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:22PM (#23848373)
The graphics did not attack anything. It described a set of assumptions that are cultural. It did say they were good or bad, or racist.

Your perception of it as an attack is your own.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by zozbot234 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:45PM (#23848812)
> It described a set of assumptions that are cultural.

Yes, but most social scientists would describe these as bourgeois values (or "bourgeois virtues"), not "Whiteness". Why bring race into it? I mean, I get it that they're looking at this from a US-centric point of view, but even then it makes zero sense other than as an intentionally provocative and sharply divisive statement. (But why would the Smithsonian Institution want to blatantly troll their patrons like that? It's mind-boggling.)

Re:Orthodox Privilege by int_19h on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:53PM (#23852550)
Because "white" in US is de facto a cultural category that is heavily intertwined with those proclaimed virtues.

Note that this doesn't mean that people who don't exemplify them are not considered white, or that people with non-white skin who do exemplify them are considered white. What it means is that it's assumed to be the norm for whites, and ideal for other groups to strive towards - and the lack of attainment is deemed as the root cause of their troubles.

Furthermore, if public perception shifts on this for some group - i.e. if they are deemed as having largely attained the ideal, when they weren't perceived as such before - they get to partake in "white privilege" to the corresponding degree; first, promoted to "honorary whites", separate but (gradually more and more) equal; and then finally fully adopted into the fold. This happened historically with e.g. Catholics (especially Irish and Italians), Eastern Europeans, and Jews; and is ongoing with some Asian nationalities, and some subgroups of Hispanics.

Note also that this is about perception of those groups by the dominant group in society, not the actual degree to which they really manifest or don't manifest those virtues. The determination to exclude the group comes first, and then their supposed failure to adhere to the virtues is used to morally justify it, and shift the blame onto those excluded. Conversely, the dominant group becomes dominant first, and then claims that its dominant status is merely an inevitable and justifiable outcome of adherence to the virtues.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by zozbot234 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @06:28PM (#23853077)
> ...if public perception shifts on this for some group - i.e. if they are deemed as having largely attained the ideal, when they weren't perceived as such before - they [are] first, promoted to "honorary whites", separate but (gradually more and more) equal; and then finally fully adopted into the fold.

This feels like a just-so story to me. The story of "white" identity as such in the U.S. is really a lot simpler than that, and we can trace it very easily in the primary sources: it does show up early on as something that was talked about mostly in opposition to Natives and the enslaved blacks, and to some extent it kept that role in the "Jim-Crow" segregated south after the emancipation of slaves, up to as recently as the Civil Rights Era. In the meantime, and quite importantly for this discussion, it got actively repurposed throughout the U.S. as a way of assimilating the fractious immigrant identities from Europe into something that could be shared by European-Americans in general. This shows up especially clearly wrt. immigrants from Germany in the run-up to World War I, who were heavily encouraged to shed any association with their nationality for obvious reasons; but the same is true of other nationalities.

But to say that Asians have been subsequently adopted as "honorary whites" in some sort of continuing dynamic, let alone that this is also true of "white Hispanics" (a categorization that does formally exist in the U.S. Census but that very few would acknowledge as such) really strains credulity. I do think that this whole way of talking about "Whiteness" as something terrible is purposely divisive; it is exploiting a deep equivocation about the legacy of slavery and segregation in order to disregard the fact that "white" is what many, many millions of people in the US have been explicitly requested to identify as, and it's really not feasible to disregard or deprecate existing identities like this without being divisive.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by int_19h on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:05AM (#23855655)
Marco Rubio is a good example of a Hispanic person who is treated as white in practice. When I was talking about a subset like that, I didn't mean white Hispanics so much so as subgroups defined by religion, and especially politics. Basically, there's a "presumption of non-whiteness" for Hispanics, but it can be overcome by individuals and communities aggressively embracing the "white" virtues (and denouncing other Hispanics who do not).

And as for Asians, you can easily observe the dynamics by first looking at the "yellow peril" scare, or, say, the justifications for the internment of Japanese-Americans during WW2 - and then compare it to how the same groups are treated today. The difference is obvious and immense.

I do agree that "white" is a bad term for it overall. But thing is, it's a pre-existing one - the reason why we talk about stuff like "white privilege" is because "white" and "non-white" was the language used to get us where we are, and the same distinction (usually obscured shibboleths like "inner city youth") is what largely fuels systemic racism today. So it's impossible to meaningfully talk about racism without talking about whiteness.

(I'll also add that SJ vocabulary is pretty bad overall when it comes to conveying concepts accurately - e.g. "privilege" is another highly misleading term that I wish was never popularized to describe the very real concept behind it.)

Re:Orthodox Privilege by zozbot234 on Thursday July 16, 2020 @03:42AM (#23856741)
I might agree that there are some interesting dynamics here and that they relate to this set of values, it's just that "X is being treated as white" is not necessarily a good way of describing them. Using that kind of wording is just assuming the conclusion - and while "white" and "non-white" may have been used in that way by some, it's only a small part of how these terms were used and it's hardly what most people think about as "white" today.

"What fuels structural, systemic racism" is another can of worms entirely and I see little reason to get into it here, other than to note that our aforementioned attitudes to class, wealth, gratification etc. might just as well be "fueling" other systemic social problems that people don't generally describe as "systemic racism", such as the opioid overuse epidemic among lower-class whites. So again, bringing race into the description of these problems risks adding confusion for little gain.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by int_19h on Thursday July 16, 2020 @06:36AM (#23857571)
I think you're starting with the implied assumption that "white" is some objective thing that exists outside of the cultural convention that establishes it. But that's exactly my point - it doesn't. Marco Rubio is white because society treats him as white. I am white for the same reason. The actual color of our skin is not primary here - it's the social convention that makes it relevant.

And yeah, this is the historical meaning of "white". Consider the one-drop rule, both as a legal concept, and as a social convention. You could be white as snow, and yet the moment the society knew you had a black ancestor several generations back, you were treated as black - and thus, you were black. In other societies, it was different - e.g. the Spanish system of meticulously tracking blood percentages, and a formal hierarchy based on that, made it possible to "whiten" a bloodline.

The one-drop rule is no longer a broadly accepted social convention by itself, true. But while it had been, it created numerous derivative cultural markers, above and beyond skin color, which continue to be the basis of the social conventions establishing race today - distinctive names, for example, or use of AAVE. Somebody can still be white as snow, have stereotypically European facial features and hair etc - but if their name is DeShawn or Shanice, and they "talk black", they will be categorized as "black who can pass as white", and treated as such. Scenarios where their appearance isn't in the picture at all - e.g. that famous study with swapping names on resumes - make that rather apparent.

BTW, the opioid abuse epidemic is very much a manifestation of systemic racism - the reason why it started in poor white communities is because they are more likely to get an opioid prescription to begin with, and because the prescriptions are more generous (and thus more ripe for abuse). These both stem from long-standing racial stereotypes - one about blacks having inherently higher pain tolerance [1], and another about them being less responsible and less able to exercise self-control. Ironically, as those stereotypes are getting addressed, the epidemic is starting to affect black communities more.

But you're absolutely right that not every social problem is about racism, even when it stems from some social value that is also used to define race. For example, the overemphasis on "rugged individualism" destroys informal community safety nets regardless of race, and the adverse effect is the same for somebody in the same position on the economic ladder. It's brought up more often specifically in the context of black communities mostly because theirs haven't been destroyed as fully as those in white communities. So the process is much more apparent there to begin with - and then economic effects of systemic racism (i.e. the fact that black communities are much poorer on average) make the negative effects of this destruction much more blatant.

[1] https://www.aamc.org/news-insights/how-we-fail-black-patient...

Re:Orthodox Privilege by zozbot234 on Thursday July 16, 2020 @07:12AM (#23857734)
> I think you're starting with the implied assumption that "white" is some objective thing that exists outside of the cultural convention that establishes it.

It's not "objective" or outside of culture - on the contrary, it is definitely subjective and inter-subjective. It's what some people have been expected to identify as for quite some time, "as a social convention". I don't think the current "social convention" agrees with e.g. "Marco Rubio is white because society treats him as white". Not because of the color of anyone's skin, or anything like that - but because he is widely identified as Latino/Hispanic, and a widespread "social convention" treats that as something other than white. (Perhaps this sort of identity is less socially important than it formerly was, but that's quite different from positing a sort of "honorary white" identity wrt. Rubio or anyone else.)

> ...For example, the overemphasis on "rugged individualism" destroys informal community safety nets

Is it really the overemphasis on rugged individualism that does this? Some people might dispute that, and blame widespread dislike for traditional values or traditional community institutions - something that, for better or for worse, seems to be very much part of the "progressive" ethic.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by vidarh on Thursday July 16, 2020 @02:39PM (#23862295)
If most social scientists would describe these as "bourgeois values" unaware of how closely what is bourgeois values in the US is historically tied to ethnicity, then most social scientists are idiots.

Most of the things listed are very much cultural, and the bourgeois assumptions within different cultures would vary massively.

E.g. "Follow rigid time schedules" is a good example that is very much cultural. My ex is Nigerian. She'll adjust her adherence to schedules based on whether or not she's going to meet white or black friends. With white friends e.g. a 2pm start for an event means the event will start at 2pm. With her black friends a 2pm start means 2pm is the earliest it's ok to consider arriving, and most likely people will start arriving by 3pm-4pm. "African time" is very much a real cultural expectation that has nothing to do with being bourgeois or working class. It's not better or worse; just a different way of thinking about time.

You might suggest she's just not "bourgeois", except she comes from a family full of leading lawyers. When I first started dating her, her dad disapproved enough to have the wife of Nigerias then vice president call her to try to talk her out of it. She grew up with servants, before she was shipped off to an expensive English boarding school. In other words: "African time" has nothing to do with socioeconomic status, and everything to do with culture.

In the US these are "bourgeois values" because bourgeois values in the US are values mostly influenced by European protestant values, and so dominated by "white" cultures.

It doesn't mean none of these values are shared by subsets of black people. Or Asian people, or whatever other group. E.g. the section on justice is very much shared by Nigerians for example, as the Nigerian system very much adopted British legal customs.

It does means most of these values are culturally dependent, and not universal, and that the origin of the US take on this is "white". It doesn't map neatly to race, but it works as a short-hand to point out that a whole lot of things we take as given about how society "should" operate and what is polite, or bourgeois, is based on cultural expectation that very often follows ethnic lines for historical reasons.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by zozbot234 on Thursday July 16, 2020 @04:44PM (#23863611)
"Follow rigid time schedules" is all about industrialization and the spread of railways. That's all there is to it. That's why people have been caring about that since 200 years ago in the U.S. and not at all in places like Nigeria.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by vidarh on Friday July 17, 2020 @06:22AM (#23869063)
That may well be, but it does not change the cultural link of it today among people who have grown up in industrialised cities with extensive railways and still apply 'African time'.

That cultural aspects can change quickly does not mean they don't exist.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by korethr on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:40PM (#23851409)
Because whiteness is the new bourgeois.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by zdragnar on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:46PM (#23848827)
It is absurdly racist. Hard work is the domain of white people? Valuing the nuclear family is somehow a trait of white people? What about thousands of years of Confucianism?
Re:Orthodox Privilege by baddox on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:04PM (#23851790)
The infographic is very clearly not saying that any of those bullet points are bad or racist or only the domain of white people. It’s saying that those bullet points are things which enjoy a special status and approval in society.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by defen on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:47PM (#23852452)
How can a culture which does not have those values (specifically, the ones around scientific method, work ethic, and future orientation) compete against one which does, in a modern industrial/technological society?
Re:Orthodox Privilege by int_19h on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @06:02PM (#23852693)
You're right - a society without scientific method or future-orientation will not develop industry and technology to the same extent.

But note how your question presupposes that competition is the only viable form of coexistence - or, at least, the only one that matters. But competition only occurs when at least one of the participants is acting competitively (i.e. treats the whole thing as a zero-sum game with winners and losers). If all players decide to collaborate, or even simply to coexist, why would a conscious choice resulting in a lesser degree of technological development be considered problematic? And if it's not problematic in that hypothetical arrangement, then what is the actual source of the problem IRL?

Re:Orthodox Privilege by defen on Thursday July 16, 2020 @12:08AM (#23855673)
I agree, it wouldn't be problematic, but it seems like a world-scale prisoner's dilemma, that goes back at least to the time of the dawn of agriculture. All it takes is one culture to defect, and they will "win" - so how could you possibly disincentivize that?
Re:Orthodox Privilege by int_19h on Thursday July 16, 2020 @03:33AM (#23856709)
Well, consider our own society. A perfectly natural way to outcompete your neighbor is by getting strong enough to murder them and take over their resources. But we have mechanisms that prevent this from being the norm.

When it comes to interactions between cultures, such mechanisms are still nascent. But since we're one of the cultures that have historically been defecting in this sense, the onus is on us to develop those mechanisms. We are in a unique position where we can take all those gains from unrestricted competition we engaged it, and utilize them to prevent the same in the future. And, conversely, if we treat other cultures as inferior on the basis that they couldn't (or refused to) remain competitive against us, that's straight-up victim blaming.

As for the counter-argument that if it weren't for us, they'd just be outcompeted by someone else, well... would you consider it acceptable to murder a person for material gain, if you knew with absolute certainty that they'd be murdered later by somebody else, anyway? Our society in general certainly does not consider this a valid justification - whatever the hypotheticals, the person who actually committed the murder bears full responsibility for it. If somebody were to say that the victim had it coming because they weren't able to muster an adequate defense, or because they refused to defend themselves for moral reasons (e.g. pacifism), that would be considered a morally repugnant position, right? So then isn't it hypocritical to not use the same logic for moral judgments on how our culture interacts with others?

Re:Orthodox Privilege by zdragnar on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @06:31PM (#23853106)
In a world where resources (and / or distribution to them) are outpaced by the needs and wants of people, then interaction in the form of competition or cooperation is necessary.

Given that not every need or want can be fulfilled, they have to be prioritized in some way.

People with differing opinions on the value of fulfilling a particular need or want are going to have difficulty cooperating; a competitive system enables people to build up resources to fulfill their own needs and wants as they desire and are capable.

Societies have often found a way to balance these- markets for the majority of cases, and charity or taxation to fulfill the rest up to the point where they peacefully agree to do so.

A purely cooperative society, as you pointed out, works up until someone opts out. It is a fantasy.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by baddox on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:22PM (#23854216)
Again, it’s not saying those things are bad. It’s saying those things enjoy a special status.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by zdragnar on Thursday July 16, 2020 @09:54AM (#23858999)
It is saying those things are white, when they aren't exclusive to western culture at all, thereby erasing others' identity.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by baddox on Thursday July 16, 2020 @11:50AM (#23860204)
It is not claiming that the bullet points are exclusive to white culture. It is claiming that they are associated with white culture and that they have become normalized in the United States because of this.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by dandanqu82 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:16PM (#23850240)
Maybe it’s challenging the idea that these values are most associated with white Americans as if other ethnicities and races don’t value and embody them.

A lot of times, when black Americans speak up about racism,they are dismissed and told they wouldn’t have a problem if they valued nuclear families and hard work etc. before even checking to see if black individuals who do embody these values struggle with systemic racism or not.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by zdragnar on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:53PM (#23850756)
From the black lives matter website:

"We disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure requirement by supporting each other as extended families and “villages” that collectively care for one another, especially our children, to the degree that mothers, parents, and children are comfortable."

That isnt the only other place i have seen equivalence between valuing the nuclear family and being white either.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by jariel on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:22PM (#23850323)
The graphic is 'attacking' to the extent the facts are wrong or misleading, and if some of the characteristics could be denigrating.

For example "Winning At All Costs" <- this is absolutely not characteristic of 'Whiteness' and the vast majority of White people would reject this notion, even by measures of behaviour, this is not true as well.

The infographic lacks many empathetic qualities, and so in the end, it borders on bigotry.

To make such assertions, I think would require a lot of nuance and objectivity. The wording of the graphic is 'off' and it should not be published as such, at least in any official quality.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by soulofmischief on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:13PM (#23850197)
I don't see how "whiteness" is cultural. To me that's like saying "brownness" or "brown culture" instead of say, "Arabic culture".
Re:Orthodox Privilege by int_19h on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:55PM (#23852575)
If it weren't cultural, it wouldn't be so variable across different countries, and historically within the same country.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by vertbhrtn on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:10PM (#23850996)
I see the "inclusiveness" rhetoric is getting very aggressive and is approaching the state "if you are not with us, you are against us." In other words, they want to divide the society along the skin color, so people would forget that it's really about poor vs rich.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by scruple on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:41PM (#23848733)
Wow. This is put out by the Smithsonian Institute. So, this is tax dollars at work. Great.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by soulofmischief on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:11PM (#23850166)
My problem with this infographic and general point of view is that it completely ignores the fact that there is a huge counterculture which not only rejects most of these concepts but also is generally accepting of people of all kinds, and many white people within this demographic are not afforded the same privileges and luxuries commonly associated with "whiteness".

Instead of recognizing these people as not part of the problem, it throws us in with the rest of the "whiteness" and creates major group division, reducing our ability to change things collectively. I've gotten in arguments with a couple of black people here and there about how because I'm "white", I shouldn't involve myself in black politics and have no right to fight for black civil rights in America. Nevermind that I'm 4th-generational Italian and come from a long line of poor indentured servants, and that my ancestor was met with racism and segregation when entering the US. My ancestor was an illegal immigrant stowaway because of racist immigration laws targeting Italy at the time. I fight for them as well as any other person whose family has a history of oppression.

Reminds me of the Niemöller poem...

"First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist."

Re:Orthodox Privilege by formerly_proven on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:18PM (#23848301)
Utterings from both the left- and right-wing discourse in the US (and increasingly in Europe) have been reaching almost 100 % applicability of Poe's law, where it is virtually impossible for me to tell whether someone is serious.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by blaser-waffle on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @02:49PM (#23849848)
That is likely deliberate, and allows you to pull quotes from the craziest of people and claim it's the view of the mainstream.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by tanseydavid on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:45PM (#23854828)
This is a very astute observation -- thank you for sharing this idea.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by banads on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:01PM (#23848056)
>"The National Museum of African American History & Culture wants to make you aware of certain signs of whiteness: Individualism, hard work, objectivity, the nuclear family, progress, respect for authority, delayed gratification, more."Oh, and emphasis on scientific methods.

What does that say about the life works of Frederick Douglass, Booker T Washington, and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.?

Re:Orthodox Privilege by zozbot234 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:22PM (#23848363)
Isn't it obvious? "They were acting white."
Re:Orthodox Privilege by banads on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:31PM (#23848529)
I'm more concerned with what that implies about the content of their character, rather than color
Re:Orthodox Privilege by andrepd on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:27PM (#23848463)
Quote the actual infographic rather than the uncharitable interpretation provided by the (biased) guy posting it.

As I read it, it's a list of traditional WASP traits. Some mostly good (hard work, objectivity, delayed gratification) others much less so (respect for authority, religious intolerance, commoditization of time, normalisation of the "rat race" as the only acceptable path to the only acceptable idea of success, etc)

Re:Orthodox Privilege by BrandonM on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:54PM (#23848958)
I don't really have a dog in this fight (I'm neither WASP nor a person of color), but to me, equating the nuclear family with whiteness is a negative stereotype in practically every direction. If my parents got divorced, am I not truly white? If I have a nuclear family, am I not truly a person of color? It's extra frustrating because it's historically inaccurate:

> A study of 1880 family structures in Philadelphia, showed that three-quarters of Black families were nuclear families, composed of two parents and children. Data from U.S. Census reports reveal that between 1880 and 1960, married households consisting of two-parent homes were the most widespread form of African-American family structures.

> In the Harlem neighborhood of New York City in 1925, 85 percent of kin-related Black households had two parents. [By 1965,] out-of-wedlock birthrate had increased to 25% among the Black population. This figure continued to rise over time and in 1991, 68% of Black children were born outside of marriage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African-American_family_struct...

Similar arguments can be made against just about every point, but I'll address "Protestant Work Ethic". The NBA is majority African American, and players routinely share their workout regimen on social media: Jimmy Butler touted his 3:30a wake-up before his first Heat practice (https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/nba/miami-heat/article235...), Dennis Rodman—can anyone label him as a symbol of whiteness?—was admired for his grueling post-game workouts, Kobe and countless other players were known for hours-long shootarounds that would exhaust anyone. Are NBA players embodying white culture?

It's worrying to me that if you shared the "White Culture" traits with racists from the past, they would agree vociferously, especially when you consider the implied inverse of those traits. They would use it as an argument for white superiority. It seems that the modern left has somehow embraced the racist stereotyping of the past, with the only difference being that they are painting the same traits—many of which are correlated with individual success—as otherness and a source of oppression.

I don't understand how infographics like this could possibly make the world a better place. Are we meant to embrace them? As an individual of any group, should I somehow be factoring "information" like this into my beliefs and actions, and if so, how is it making my life and the lives of the people around me better?

Re:Orthodox Privilege by watwut on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @02:26PM (#23849460)
Nuclear family is also about lesser importance put of relationships with grandparents, adult siblings, aunts and so on. It also implies higher isolation from community.

It is not universally objectively the best thing ever.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by pdonis on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:45PM (#23850631)
> Nuclear family is also about lesser importance put of relationships with grandparents, adult siblings, aunts and so on.

It could be, but I don't see the infographic saying that. The infographic could just as easily be saying that no family relationships at all is the (implied to be more desirable) alternative.

In fact, that's a big issue with the infographic as a whole: what alternatives are we supposed to compare all these things to? None are given.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by watwut on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:00PM (#23850858)
Why should infographic say that? It characterised norms of one demographic in one time and place. It does not have to make rundown of everything.

Traditional alternative to nuclear family is extended family. Nuclear family as we know it is early 20 century norm, basically 1950 ideal.

Or Asian and old Eastern European arrangements where woman goes to live with husbands familly.

Interestingly, the different structure of black family (including supposed matriarchy, really) was blamed for social ills in black communities in 1965.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by int_19h on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @06:09PM (#23852813)
If the infographic covered all the possible human cultural arrangements wrt families, that part alone would be far longer than everything else in it. But the point here is not to educate about all possibilities - it's rather to point out that a specific arrangement is considered normative, and (perceived) adherence or non-adherence to it is used to establish a hierarchy of groups.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by projektfu on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:51PM (#23850714)
White supremacists also often hold up the nuclear family as ideal when they say it is under attack by feminism, immigration, multiculturalism, homosexuality and cosmopolitanism. The nuclear family is not typical in many other cultures that, as another poster mentioned, value many kinship relationships as well as neighbor relationships very highly and extend the family unit accordingly.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by kenfox on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @03:39PM (#23850544)
The nuclear family is an American white cultural norm. It may also be a norm for other groups. You are seeing black as the opposite of white and blackness as defined as the opposite of every white norm. That seems pretty extreme; a deductive fallacy even. The infographic didn't say anything about black culture though it would be interesting to see the identical format used to describe black culture.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by Maximus9000 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:32PM (#23851302)
> The nuclear family is an American white cultural norm.

See this UN paper [1] regarding stats on the nuclear family. The nuclear family is a phenomenon that exists on all continents. It's not the only way, but it's certainly not a "white" thing. The nuclear family is actually most prominent in Northern Africa. See figure 10 on page 19.

https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/publicatio...

Re:Orthodox Privilege by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @06:24PM (#23853023)
I cannot imagine that infographic being produced about black culture without it producing a howling firestorm of opposition.

First, who produces it? Whites? Yeah, that will go over big. Blacks? That makes it look like propaganda or wishful thinking. Professional sociologists? Is sociology objective enough to produce a consensus?

Then there's the content. Black culture? Which one? (There are several.) Any one you pick, those in other cultures find your infographic to be nonrepresentative.

But every bit of what I said is true of the actual infographic. Who produced it? Whites? Blacks? Professional sociologists? And, which white culture? There is not one uniform white culture across the US.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by BrandonM on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @05:27PM (#23852121)
Thank you, I appreciate your point that white isn't intended to stand in contrast to black in this context. I'll keep that in mind. Unfortunately, that only makes less clear to me what the infographic is attempting to convey, how it's supposed to contribute to the discussion. It seems to me to be implicitly encouraging some kind of comparison that it leaves to the exercise of the reader, and I don't think that's a great idea.

Separately, I'm not clear on how "white cultural norm" is defined or what exactly it means. Is it meant to imply "majority norms in much of Europe, the British Commonwealth, and the US"? If so, why call it "white" instead of something more precise like "EBCU"? Otherwise, is it implying the existence of a shared white culture based around color of skin? When Latino and African and Asian individuals/families share similar ideals, are they contributing to the white cultural norms, or not?

I think the terminology here is important to get right, as I believe that the popular terminology is a source of a lot of the strife at present, whether intentional or not. For example, the tyranny of the majority is a well established problem in democracies. Society has debated for centuries how best to protect the rights of minorities while implementing the will of the majority. Strong individual rights is one method, as it provides a platform for all of us to actively participate to expand and protect the rights of every person. Recasting that debate as white vs. black seems to needlessly alienate potential allies and to reinvent a bunch of concepts without benefiting from the lessons and debates of the past.

For a concrete example of the terminology issue, I think that a big part of the controversy around the Black Lives Matter movement is disagreement about the meaning of the omitted, implied adverb. Does it mean "Black Lives Matter too", or does it mean "Black Lives Matter more", or perhaps something else? Radicals and dissidents on both sides of the spectrum seem to assume the "more" interpretation and react accordingly, whereas sympathizers interpret it along the lines of the "too" interpretation. To complicate things further, some sincerely respond that "All Lives Matter" in a well-meaning way, apparently attempting to clarify and agree with the "Black Lives Matter too" interpretation. Declaring "All Lives Matter" is currently a fireable offense, which brings us back to the theme of PG's essay.

To summarize, I think that terminology is incredibly important. Using "white" as a placeholder for a nebulous concept, especially when it routinely has a negative connotation, only seems to make unified progress more difficult.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by vertbhrtn on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:15PM (#23851067)
What is WASP? WA State Police?
Re:Orthodox Privilege by nitrogen on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:31PM (#23851281)
It's a derogatory reference to a race and culture. Can probably find it defined on Wiktionary or Urban Dictionary.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by 082349872349872 on Friday July 17, 2020 @07:45AM (#23869499)
It's not derogatory among WASPs[1] themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTU2He2BIc0 wasn't aired outside New England, for instance.

"We play croquet / and go rollerblading / here's to homies on lock / for insider trading"

[1] In the past, it was White, as opposed to say, coloured, Anglo-Saxon, as opposed to say, irish, and Protestant, as opposed to say, catholic. One might not, seeing pictures such as:

https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images...

suspect that JFK and Jackie, both undoubtedly privileged, were not considered orthodox by a large segment of the US population.

https://www.courant.com/opinion/editorials/hc-xpm-2013-11-29...

(as to White: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_African_Am... says the US military already started integrating in 1948. Due to their long experience, in 2020 they may serve as an example for the elected politicians of ways to run a colour-blind meritocracy.)

Re:Orthodox Privilege by tanseydavid on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @09:43PM (#23854806)
The term is in fact, commonly, but not always used in a pejorative manner. From Wikipedia:

"In the 21st century, WASP is often applied as a derogatory label to those with social privilege who are perceived to be snobbish and exclusive, such as being members of restrictive private social clubs.[63] A number of popular jokes ridicule those thought to fit the stereotype.[84]"

Re:Orthodox Privilege by trashymctrash on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:32PM (#23851294)
Re:Orthodox Privilege by bacondude3 on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:26PM (#23851214)
White Anglo-Saxon Protestant.
Re:Orthodox Privilege by malyk on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @04:33PM (#23851319)
White Anglo Saxon Protestant
Re:Orthodox Privilege by MisterBastahrd on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @08:28PM (#23854271)
That isn't what the sign says. It's what York is trying to imply from it, because York's made his entire career out of race-baiting.

The purpose of the sign is to show how people who DON'T have those things have been discriminated against because of circumstances beyond their control.

If you're poor, rugged individualism is less important than getting through the day. Collectivism is the more intelligent approach in that situation.

Hard work for a lot of white folks is seen in the context of having "a job that matters."

Objectivity in this situation is a farce. Yes, it's stupid to take out a payday loan. But when your wife just lost her job or you lost your child care benefits and you have to pay rent, you do what you have to do.

Nuclear families are great if you're born into them. What happens when you aren't?

And so on, and so forth.

And the funniest thing about this whole thing? White society is trending away from AAAAAALLLLL of these as the cost of living outpaces inflation and wages stay stagnant.

Turns out that it's pretty easy to check the items off of that list if you have the means to do it.

Re:Orthodox Privilege by steverb on Wednesday July 15, 2020 @01:04PM (#23848098)
The article and the infographic in question did not call those signs of whiteness, they are referred to as some aspects and assumptions of Whiteness and WHite Culture.

Most of which cause me to wonder what kind of person wouldn't agree with those things... which just goes to show how fully a part of my culture I am. :-)

I didn't see the article refer to those things as right or wrong, merely default positions.