https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man

The main wikipedia article on Tianenmen square discusses other estimates of the number of deaths (all others being much lower):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Tiananmen_Square_protests

There are a number of people involved in the protests who have left China and provided accounts. At least one person wrote a book, although there is no English translation as far as I know.

The British government has itself killed quite a lot of civilians and is hardly a reliable source considering their history with China.

I disagree, that photo could’ve easily been taken before the killing started. The fact that tank man’s identity or whereabouts are unknown provides evidence that he was probably killed in the demonstrations.

> The British government has itself killed quite a lot of civilians and is hardly a reliable source considering their history with China.

This is completely fallacious. The fact that Britain has killed civilians has no bearing on their truth-telling here. You’re essentially arguing that no country is capable of telling the truth because it’s not realistic to name a country that hasn’t killed civilians at some point, no?

I do not think in general governments are a good source of facts and even in the best circumstances most seem incapable of telling the truth. The British government reporting on China is nowhere near the best circumstances. The account you quoted now serves as propaganda for people who want to believe that China is uniquely monstrous. A number of people have quoted it on HN and it is at odds with eyewitness accounts.

Even the Chinese government admits it killed hundreds of people during the protest. Possibly the number is over 1k, but 10k deaths is not credible nor is the vivid account.

I personally see no difference between the two except they're both fighting to be the world superpower and China is really stepping in to take that role from a USA in distress.

Has China done that?

Yes, tell me more about what the US did in the Philippines.

That’s my point. Don’t try and deflect.

And those places have a quite positive views of America.

> In 2018, two-thirds (67%) see the U.S. positively, up 10 percentage points from 2017.

> But the Japanese public has less esteem for America than do Filipinos (83%) and South Koreans (80%).

I know Vietnam has one of the most pro-American viewpoints of any country. Last poll I saw had >90% holding a positive view of the US.

China has not typically gone beyond their own historical borders, and when they have, it is miniscule compared to how the U.S. has.

Want more examples?

Yes the US has done bad things. But there are degrees of bad things and I would argue China has done worst things and continues to do so.

Try being a minority religion in China too...

The Taliban killed approximately zero Iraqis (you may be confusing al-Qaeda with the Taliban, and the group that after the war temporarily adopted the name “al-Qaeda in Iraq”, before becoming the Islamic State—that erupted into a major force because of the American mismanagement of the post-invasion occupation, most notably the almost entirely unmanaged demobilization of the security services—with al-Qaeda itself. Americans killed a lot themselves, as well as launching an unprovoked war of aggression which produced the context in which many others were killed beyond those Americans killed directly. But all of those deaths are America's fault and responsibility, even those that are also someone else’s fault and responsibility.

Yes, the US has done plenty of things that are wrong. We talk about them frequently, including here on HN. But this conversation is about China oppressing the people of Hong Kong. Do you mind letting us discuss that, without distracting us with "But the US!!!!!" all over the place?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Park_(Berkeley)

Shooting workers that unionized was also common:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lattimer_massacre

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anaconda_Road_massacre

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_Mine_massacre

But anyone with a gun can pull the trigger. It takes an enormous amount of coordination to uniformly run over people with tanks, burn their bodies, and flush them down drains.

The incidents you’ve linked are undoubtedly dark chapters, but they are not comparable to what we’ve seen in China.

Contrast that with Kent State, Jackson State, and other places where troops were deployed and the situation escalated.

The ultimate difference here is that it’s perfectly legal and acceptable for us to talk about what happened at Kent state. The events are not in dispute.

China, on the other hand, jails people for talking about Tiananmen Square. To acknowledge the existence of such heinous acts is itself a crime in that country.

The fact that we can sit here and argue about this without fear of going to prison is itself proof that these situations, and countries, are incomparable.

uhh... what? Have you checked the "legal action" section?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings#Legal_act...

or did you expect that the guards' heads be put on a pike?

Oh, and don't forget that we can talk about what happened freely. Try doing that in China.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_websites_blocked_in_...

Talking about Snowden, I have always wondered why there's never been a Chinese whistleblower. Nobody working in Chinese intelligence has the courage or conscience, or they have no way to let the world know?

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone...

[1] - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-security-snowden-guar...

Contrast this with Tiananmen Square: Beijing does everything it can to prevent its citizens knowing about it, and is all to happy to cultivate a reputation that they would gladly do it again today.

Really good example. Thank you.