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Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by jqpabc123 on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:12PM (#23794497)
Life in general and your brain in particular may very well be more than "just chemistry". We really don't know.

What we do know at this point is that no amount of "just chemistry" has ever managed to create even the most rudimentary form of "life" from inert chemicals.

And the only working models we have for "intelligence" at this point are inextricably bound to life.

Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by dwaltrip on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:29PM (#23795362)
Don’t beat around the bush. Are you implying life is supernaturally sustained? That would be quite the claim.

If not, then the history of science strongly suggests we can eventually learn the mechanisms of life and intelligence and then find a way to imperfectly yet sufficiently reimplement them.

Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by jqpabc123 on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:11PM (#23795870)
Are you suggesting life is supernaturally sustained?

No. I am simply suggesting that creating life (and intelligence) from inert materals may involve more than "just chemistry". In the same way that lead can not be turned into gold by "just chemistry".

I welcome knowledge and proof to the contrary but thus far, there is none.

Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by dwaltrip on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:46PM (#23797979)
Gold can be made from lead (and other inputs) using knowledge that is generally classified as nuclear physics. It’s not very practical or economical, so no one does it — but it can be done. It’s true that this isn’t “chemistry”. Not sure if you were making a deeper point.

Perhaps to truly understand life we need to look deeply at physics, geology, fluid dynamics, and many other specialized fields, in addition to chemistry. And maybe we will need some new discoveries in these areas than have not yet been made. Is that all?

I don’t think there is really much contention between that and the idea that life is “just chemistry”. I would bet most people saying that are totally fine with what I wrote above and are likely just trying to be concise with their words.

Unless you mean more than you are plainly saying, this seems like splitting hairs about the taxonomy of scientific understanding. Understanding is understanding, regardless of how you categorize it.

Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by jqpabc123 on Saturday July 11, 2020 @04:40AM (#23800566)
The only deeper point is that labeling it "just chemistry" may be a gross over simplification of what is required to actually achieve it.
Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by dwaltrip on Saturday July 11, 2020 @01:57PM (#23804162)
Ok, fair enough. I was pushing back so strongly as it seemed you might have been implying that there is a certain "magic" we can never investigate or understand, which I find to be a very unjustified and regressive position.

Much of our progress in medicine, science, and technology has been made due to the idea that the world around operates in an orderly fashion and can be investigated and understood.

Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by c1ccccc1 on Friday July 10, 2020 @07:03PM (#23797621)
We have lots of evidence of how the processes of life are chemically driven: Photosynthesis captures energy from sunlight, metabolism of sugars produces ATP which is then used in a variety of ways by the cell's proteins, the DNA->RNA->Protein pipeline builds proteins from the sequences of base pairs stored in a cell's DNA, and DNA copying enzymes pass that information from generation to generation. Since you probably already know about that stuff, I guess I must be misunderstanding what kind of proof you are looking for. What sort of discovery would count as "proof" to you?
Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by jqpabc123 on Saturday July 11, 2020 @04:35AM (#23800550)
What sort of discovery would count as "proof" to you?

The ultimate proof is actually doing it. Start with nothing but inert materials and produce a new, unique form of living organism using "just chemistry".

I'm not saying it can't be done, I am saying that thus far, it hasn't been done. And the reason it hasn't been done might be because "just chemistry" is an overly simplistic description of what is needed to actually achieve it.

But feel free to prove me wrong.

Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by chess_buster on Friday July 10, 2020 @05:36PM (#23796789)
Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by rutherblood on Saturday July 11, 2020 @08:23AM (#23801641)
let's say he believes that. even then his belief would be as understandable & justifiable as yours. Wagging a finger and saying history of science suggest this and that is just that, belief. Just because something happened before you think it'll happen again and again. I do sympathize with your pov and even agree with it, but let's not beat around the bush as you say and let's just call this what our povs are: faith in science yet to come. Ours is no more righteous than the other.

EDIT: some grammar

Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by dwaltrip on Saturday July 11, 2020 @01:52PM (#23804122)
I very strongly disagree that we can't label some beliefs as more compelling and reflective of reality than others.

I am happy to admit that doing a good job of differentiating is tricky business indeed, and that we all make many blatant errors and are prone to developing distorted ways of seeing things.

Nonetheless, I do believe that humanity has acquired some real understanding of the world and will continue to do so.

Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by mcguire on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:47PM (#23797473)
No amount of "just chemistry" has yet managed to create...

Keep in mind that no amount of rocketeering has ever put a man on Mars, but that hardly constitutes a proof, or even serious evidence, that it is impossible.

Arguments from ignorance are a terrible thing.

Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by rutherblood on Saturday July 11, 2020 @08:31AM (#23801707)
I haven't yet managed to fit inside a toothpaste tube. But you believe in the impossibility of this right? There is no absolute belief or disbelief. It is all a continuous gradation. Some things we can bring ourselves to belief in if there is sufficient cause. Not arguing for or against the original point but just your argument and condescension.
Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by mcguire on Saturday July 11, 2020 @11:28AM (#23802852)
I believe I cannot not fit into a toothpaste tube for entirely different reasons than "nobody has ever done it." The latter is the assertion here.
Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by jqpabc123 on Saturday July 11, 2020 @04:25AM (#23800513)
Stating that it has yet to be done is a fact --- and facts are not ignorance
Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by mcguire on Saturday July 11, 2020 @11:29AM (#23802871)
Stating that it has not been done has no implications on whether it can be done, which is the claim being made.
Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by jqpabc123 on Sunday July 12, 2020 @09:16AM (#23811097)
Stating that it is "just chemistry" has no implications on whether it can be done, which was the claim being made.

The fact that it has not been done with "just chemistry" is no proof but it does tend to skew the probabilities toward the view that substantially more may be required.

Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by doliveira on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:40PM (#23794816)
Yeah, demons may be pushing chemicals down your neurons or your soul is giving tiny electrical shocks to the axons. Anything is possible.

One would think that the synthesis of urea back in 1828 would at least weaken this argument, but hey...

Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by jqpabc123 on Friday July 10, 2020 @05:41PM (#23796853)
Nice straw man.
Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by baddox on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:59PM (#23797596)
> Life in general and your brain in particular may very well be more than "just chemistry". We really don't know.

That claim has roughly the same epistemological status as Last Thursdayism ("the world was created last Thursday in a state where we have memories and see evidence of past events but those events aren't actually real.").

> What we do know at this point is that no amount of "just chemistry" has ever managed to create even the most rudimentary form of "life" from inert chemicals.

How do we know that? Are you just talking about humans practicing chemistry?

Re:Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized by neatze on Friday July 10, 2020 @10:32PM (#23798974)
Emerging field of quantum biology if fairly new, there numerous processes in neural networks for which current understanding of chemistry and mathematics is not sufficient.

For example, how transfer of functions emerges after hemispherectomy (half a brain is removed), to best of my understanding is unknown.