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Re:Blog Anonymously by throwaway894345 on Friday July 10, 2020 @01:56PM (#23794305)
> Freedom of speech protects you from people who attempt to silence you by jailing, torturing, or killing you. It doesn't mean people are forced to put up with your stupid and unpopular opinions.

You (like many) misunderstand the debate. "Free speech" proponents aren't advocating for a prohibition of criticism--to the contrary, criticism is free speech. Rather, free speech proponents are arguing against intimidation (e.g., harassment, doxxing, petitioning one's employer to fire them for wrongthink or false allegations, etc).

Anyway, you concede that things have improved in the past, but you criticize people for opposing regression to a more limited-speech state. This seems remarkably overtly inconsistent.

EDIT: This is cancel culture: https://twitter.com/wokal_distance/status/128148065056698777...

Re:Blog Anonymously by CathedralBorrow on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:35PM (#23794752)
If I inform a corporation that I will not do business with them while a person is in their employment, am I oppressing that person or am I using my freedom of speech?
Re:Blog Anonymously by throwaway894345 on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:51PM (#23794912)
If I say "it would be unfortunate if something happened to your job", am I issuing a veiled threat or am I using my freedom of speech? It's possible that I'm not making a threat, but we know it's unlikely. Technically it amounts to intent (do you intend to ruin someone's livelihood or are you just making a bizarre statement for indecipherable reasons?).
Re:Blog Anonymously by CathedralBorrow on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:13PM (#23795904)
I agree with everything you said. Can you comment on my question though?
Re:Blog Anonymously by throwaway894345 on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:20PM (#23795981)
I did. I said it technically depends on intent; however, in practice it's implausible that you weren't issuing a threat, and threats don't constitute free speech.
Re:Blog Anonymously by CathedralBorrow on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:25PM (#23796030)
Ok I'm confused so can you please help me? My example was absolutely a "threat" in the sense that yes, I in that example would be serious about voicing my opinion and my intention to not voluntarily do business with that imaginary corporation while they employed that person. I would be "threatening" to do something which is entirely my freedom to do; to vote with my wallet.

But if I understand you correctly, this would be going outside my freedom of speech. Which implies that I do not have the choice to not do business with them. As in, I am obligated to purchase goods and services from them.

I am clearly misunderstanding this because that can't be right. Where did I go off track?

Re:Blog Anonymously by throwaway894345 on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:32PM (#23796109)
Of course you have the choice of whether or not to do business with them. Nevertheless, threats are not free speech.
Re:Blog Anonymously by CathedralBorrow on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:35PM (#23796132)
I'm still confused. I am completely free to choose whether or not to do business with them, but I am not allowed to tell them about my choice? Or am I not allowed to speak about it at all, regardless of who listens?
Re:Blog Anonymously by throwaway894345 on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:53PM (#23796343)
Issuing threats is not free speech. You're still free to choose with whom you do business. Terribly sorry, but I don't know how to make it simpler than that. Good luck in your pursuits.
Re:Blog Anonymously by jaccarmac on Friday July 10, 2020 @06:02PM (#23797070)
Ah yes, and of course whether or not something is a threat depends on intent. And who could be a better judge of intent than ... throwaway894345. Who I'm sure has an incredibly nuanced way of determining intent that doesn't boil down to "SJWs have bad intent".
Re:Blog Anonymously by giancarlostoro on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:58PM (#23795010)
You're extorting a company, let's even call it quid pro quo.
Re:Blog Anonymously by Klinky on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:52PM (#23796334)
This would be hard to legally call extortion, since consumers are free to do business with who they please, and there is a strong history of boycott activity. Also if it were illegal, then many negotiating tactics become extortion. Is threatening to leave a company unless you get a raise now illegal extortion? Is demanding a lower cable bill or else you'll go to a competitor now illegal extortion?

I would consider these more ultimatums than extortion. Also extortion always includes quid pro quo, but not all quid pro quo is illegal. Context matters.

[dead]
Re:Blog Anonymously by throwaway894345 on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:25PM (#23796039)
That freedom, like many others, is limited. You may also be dismayed to find that you aren't free to tell someone that you will do business with her on the condition that she sleeps with you. This is quid pro quo harassment.
Re:Blog Anonymously by CathedralBorrow on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:30PM (#23796089)
I'm not dismayed at all, and would appreciate it if you could refrain from painting pictures of what you think my state of mind might be. Thanks.

Are you saying that I am breaking the law by telling a company that I will not do business with them as long as they employ some person? Just to head off future misunderstandings on my part I'd like to get this clear first.

Re:Blog Anonymously by throwaway894345 on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:56PM (#23796358)
It was a hypothetical. I wasn't speaking about you specifically. Anyway, I've explained in another thread as simply as I'm able. Good luck on your educational endeavors.
Re:Blog Anonymously by paulryanrogers on Friday July 10, 2020 @03:14PM (#23795171)
So a boycott?
Re:Blog Anonymously by CathedralBorrow on Friday July 10, 2020 @04:12PM (#23795891)
Sure, is my choice to boycott a company also an act of oppression?
Re:Blog Anonymously by Klinky on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:36PM (#23794763)
It sounds like you will protect free speech by suppressing certain forms of free speech?

I would not necessarily be against anti-harassment/doxxing laws, and stronger employee protections around firings. However, also stronger hate speech laws around protected classes. It's a double edged sword.

Re:Blog Anonymously by throwaway894345 on Friday July 10, 2020 @02:41PM (#23794825)
Threats and intimidation don't constitute free speech, even when veiled. Note that I don't think anyone is advocating for more/harsher laws to protect free speech (although these might be welcomed by some), only appealing for a cultural shift away from cancellation and toward free-speech values.
Re:Blog Anonymously by Klinky on Friday July 10, 2020 @05:00PM (#23796394)
I believe free speech does not cover "true threats". I don't think a consumer complaint threatening to not do business is going to be considered a "true threat" against a company.
Re:Blog Anonymously by throwaway894345 on Friday July 10, 2020 @05:30PM (#23796735)
Free speech doesn't cover any kind of threats. We tolerate "veiled threats" to the extent that we can't confirm that they are threats, and they are difficult to confirm by design and definition. They exploit our presumption of innocence.
Re:Blog Anonymously by Klinky on Friday July 10, 2020 @05:54PM (#23796989)
Threats of all kinds are made every day, and often in completely legal contexts. Threats of violence are often less tolerated, but even in some contexts protected under freedom of speech.
Re:Blog Anonymously by throwaway894345 on Friday July 10, 2020 @05:59PM (#23797039)
Take care not to conflate free speech principles with legal protections for free speech.
Re:Blog Anonymously by Klinky on Friday July 10, 2020 @08:16PM (#23798151)
It sounds like you want people to censor themselves in a way you find appropriate, based on what you believe freedom of speech means.