News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by na85 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:28PM (#23672860)
I say this as an avid emacs user: Emacs has a real problem in that it's very powerful but the, let's say, spiritual leader of the project (Stallman) is so wildly divorced from the real world because of his personal choices that he really has no idea what makes a compelling UX vs what makes a complete mess of arcane incantations. On top of that, the documentation is only suitable as a reference for someone who already knows emacs, so it's hard to learn.

To wit: Again I really really like Emacs as a piece of software, and I've been using it for like 10 years now. Maybe 3 or 4 of those years I've been using it reasonably seriously and even I find my eyes glaze over because of how dense and unapproachable the documentation is.

On top of that, being a political project, Stallman actively resists certain improvements to Emacs that would for example make it work better on my Mac, because my Mac is nonfree and Stallman would rather have an objectively poorer piece of software than one that "encourages" using MacOS.

And of course the other senior people in the Emacs project don't want to go against Stallman, so emacs is doomed to being a mediocre niche text editor with unrealized potential to become a household name.

If someone wrote an open source clone of Emacs that adopted some sane defaults, modern UI conventions, and dropped all the political BS it could be so much better.

Alas I don't have the skill nor the time to attempt such a thing.

Edit: hey how about a substantive reply rather than drive-by downvotes?

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by quadrifoliate on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:21PM (#23673173)
I'm genuinely puzzled about why posters like this want to make Emacs into some kind of household name if only it would do some random thing that they want.

I'm a die-hard Emacs fan, but it's a tool. It works well -- really well for a lot of us. For the rest, honestly, I don't care very much about evangelizing Emacs because I have a lot left to explore about using it first. There is 20- and 30- year old elisp out there that still runs perfectly well on a modern Emacs and probably solves some of your problems. Rendering a crop of the latest fly-by-night emoji is honestly the least of my concerns (with reference to the MacOS thing), although I personally disagree strongly with Stallman's stance in that matter.

I agree about the docs being dense and somewhat unapproachable, a lot could be done towards making elisp easier to approach. I think a big problem here is the unapproachability of any Lisp (not just Emacs Lisp) as a scripting and configuration language. In fact, I wonder if (Clojure being the first), elisp is the second most popular scripted Lisp in existence.

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by hvis on Monday June 29, 2020 @04:23PM (#23682347)
> Rendering a crop of the latest fly-by-night emoji is honestly the least of my concerns (with reference to the MacOS thing), although I personally disagree strongly with Stallman's stance in that matter.

Of course you do. This policy doesn't benefit you in the slightest, and since you are a macOS user already, all of your experience is telling you that this policy doesn't work.

But this particular policy is logical, and it doesn't really hurt Emacs. And, who knows, perhaps one day some talented/bored macOS developer will become so unhappy with Emacs not showing the latest fashion of emojis, they will go on and implement that support in Free libraries that are used for text rendering on GNU/Linux, and contribute it upstream.

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by omaranto on Sunday June 28, 2020 @10:20PM (#23673787)
> If someone wrote an open source clone of Emacs that adopted some sane defaults, modern UI conventions, and dropped all the political BS it could be so much better.

Emacs does have sane defaults. Did you mean instead you want defaults that remind you of the defaults in other (younger) programs that people might be more familiar with? That can be useful to gain more users. But it doesn't require an Emacs "clone", just an Emacs package with the settings you want. This approach is actually pretty popular: many people use CUA mode, Evil or even a distribution like Doom or Spacemacs. There's no need to change Emacs just to change a few defaults.

There are also package that address the "modern UI conventions" part of your complaint too to some extent, and again, distributions like Doom and Spacemacs include some of these packages. (Personally I only care if UI is practical and efficient, not if it is modern, but I do understand that some people like modern UIs for their own sake.)

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by lgessler on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:40PM (#23672920)
> If someone wrote an open source clone of Emacs that adopted some sane defaults, modern UI conventions, and dropped all the political BS it could be so much better.

Worthy of mention, of course, is Spacemacs[1], which made Emacs approachable to me, someone who hadn't used much beyond Notepad++ and Eclipse before then.

[1]: https://www.spacemacs.org/

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by na85 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:41PM (#23672932)
To me, the existence of spacemacs and doom and others are an indictment of Emacs' poor out of the box experience.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by iLemming on Sunday June 28, 2020 @09:44PM (#23673606)
You have to understand that Spacemacs, Doom, ErgoEmacs, Prelude, etc. are not products. They are collections of recipes. And bare-bone Emacs is not a product either. Emacs is a kitchen where you use Lisp to bake your own editor/IDE/frankensteinian toy. Using Spacemacs or Doom doesn't liberate you from learning Lisp and Emacs internals.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by mercer on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:21AM (#23675264)
> Using Spacemacs or Doom doesn't liberate you from learning Lisp and Emacs internals.

Yes it does, for me anyways, for the most part. While I definitely plan to dive deeper, I'm using plenty of Emacs stuff via Spacemacs, and I've customized plenty of stuff by copy/pasting incomprehensible elisp snippets.

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by iLemming on Monday June 29, 2020 @06:20PM (#23684009)
It does in the beginning. But if you want to become a serious Emacsen, it's better to learn some emacs-lisp.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by mercer on Tuesday June 30, 2020 @04:51AM (#23688085)
Sure, but 'using' Spacemacs is still perfectly possible without learning Lisp and Emacs internals. I use magit, orgmode, tramp, and I'm in Emacs for significant chunks of the day. I'd say that doesn't only mean that I'm a proper 'user' of Emacs, but that I'm pretty serious about it!

Of course as a Lisp weenie I do intend to dive into Emacs and honestly part of the reason I don't is that I'm afraid I'll end up spending way too much time diving and tinkering.

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by lgessler on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:58PM (#23673038)
I don't disagree. I greatly appreciate Emacs now that I know (5% or less of) it, but I don't think I could have gotten here if Spacemacs hadn't provided sane defaults for packages and keybindings.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by jonfw on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:20PM (#23673164)
That's the makings of great open source software- you have something very lightweight and unopiniated at the core, and distributions can pack all of the features and opinion they want on top of that to target more specific use cases. This allows you to keep the opinion downstream of the core project, so changes by people with different opinions can still find their way upstream.

Linux and Kubernetes are structured the same way- nobody is using that out of box on it's own

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by ssivark on Monday June 29, 2020 @02:11PM (#23680400)
And that’s fine, because Emacs is not meant to be an opinionated “app” or product. And that’s exactly what makes it so fantastic, in a landscape filled with crud that’s simple out-of-the-box, and then puts you in a straightjacket forever afterwards.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by sriku on Sunday June 28, 2020 @09:48PM (#23673631)
Been reading Wittgenstein's Tractatus the past few days and your comment reminded me of the beginning (quoting from memory, not exact words) - "this book will perhaps be understand only by those who've already had the thoughts expressed in it or similar thoughts" :)

Emacs kind of gives me that same vibe. I used it for many years to organize my research but still have a hard time remembering key strokes and such .. though i dont have a similar issue with vim whose modal interface I find rather pleasantly compositional. So I get both the sense of power and flexibility, and the chaos of it.

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by taeric on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:02PM (#23673061)
If all you think it needs are sensible defaults, try just bending said defaults.

I'm somewhat curious what choices of Stallman's you think are holding it back. Feels more alive to me than it has ever felt. And that branch that is using gcc to compile elisp is a delight.

I concede I expect there are choices made that could be bad; but I suspect most of the choices people think matter, don't. Which is why i highlight the compiling elisp branch. A complete rewrite would not have had as much of an impact. And, frankly, I feel elisp is easily as good of a language as any proposed choice. Better than most.

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by omaranto on Sunday June 28, 2020 @10:23PM (#23673811)
I agree about Emacs Lisp. A language without dynamically scoped variables or without macros would be a big step backwards.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by tetris11 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:45PM (#23673278)
This. How is Stallman holding back the UX?
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by iLemming on Tuesday June 30, 2020 @06:08PM (#23695344)
He ain't holding it back. He's stalling it. He's the Stall-Man after all.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by bitwize on Sunday June 28, 2020 @10:49PM (#23673909)
It doesn't follow Apple UI guidelines. In 1984 we learned that having one, single, mouse-driven UI paradigm for all programs, handed down to us by our superiors in Cupertino, was an objectively superior mode of interaction with a computer, saving many lives' worth of time and brainpower over the years. Yet somehow, Stallman remains so empathy-deprived as to be stubbornly unenlightened by this knowledge.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by saagarjha on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:39PM (#23672917)
> so emacs is doomed to being a mediocre niche text editor with unrealized potential to become a household name

Emacs is absolutely a household name, at least in the world of text editors…

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by lgessler on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:40PM (#23672925)
I'd venture that it's not among rank-and-file software developers, though.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by nsl73 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:47PM (#23672968)
I’m a software developer, that commonly talks about software development with a diverse group of software developers.

I’ve never had a conversation with a software developer where they didn’t know what vim or emacs are.

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by lgessler on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:56PM (#23673025)
I just suspect that people here on HN are coming from the upper portions of the software developer spectrum in terms of experience, aptitude, enthusiasm, and training--there are plenty of other people in the world who do software development but lack some of those things. For my own part, I graduated with a bachelors in computer science having only heard Emacs mentioned once in a course (at the beginning of the second course in the intro sequence) by a particularly enthusiastic professor, and I never heard anyone talking about Vim or Emacs at my first job, where everyone more or less had to work exclusively with Visual Studio and an in-house IDE.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by saagarjha on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:03PM (#23673065)
Anyone that knows what vi is almost certainly knows what emacs is.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by totetsu on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:18PM (#23673152)
I'd say there is a fair few beginner Linux users who have followed a tutorial on OMGUbuntu or stackexchange who know of VI but will never hear of emacs.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by nordsieck on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:34PM (#23673231)
> I'd say there is a fair few beginner Linux users who have followed a tutorial on OMGUbuntu or stackexchange who know of VI but will never hear of emacs.

Ok.

But of those people who stick with vi for more than 6 months, how many of them have yet to hear of emacs at that point? Maybe 5%?

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by bitwize on Sunday June 28, 2020 @10:41PM (#23673876)
The software developers I asspciate with today in the enterprise world fall in one of two camps:

1) Emacs? What is that? Looks like it came out before I was born. No thank you, I need something modern.

2) Emacs? That's still around?! I remember that from my Vax days...

Either way, few of them would countenance the idea of using Emacs to do professional software development in 2020. The vast, vast majority of developers out there use either a large feature-rich IDE like Visual Studio, IntelliJ, or Eclipse... or they use Visual Studio Code.

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by komali2 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @09:30PM (#23673537)
https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-...

4.5%. So not many but it's certainly "among."

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by grzm on Sunday June 28, 2020 @09:32PM (#23673543)
That's those who use Emacs, not those who know what it is.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by komali2 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @09:48PM (#23673632)
Surely the number of people who know what it is is higher than those who use it?
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by grzm on Sunday June 28, 2020 @09:52PM (#23673657)
My post was mostly a response to "not many".
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by sgillen on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:49PM (#23672978)
Really? I don't think I've ever met a software developer that didn't know what vim and emacs were.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by billwear on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:36PM (#23673240)
my entire MAAS development team at Canonical are emacs users. we also have those who use vi or even visual studio. it's all about what works for you, i guess.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by na85 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:40PM (#23672923)
I mean household name in the same class as MS Office.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by fwip on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:44PM (#23672947)
Are there any text editors that are? Maybe Notepad or Notes.app because they come preinstalled?
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by trenchgun on Monday June 29, 2020 @03:56PM (#23681897)
VScode is.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by fwip on Tuesday June 30, 2020 @01:09AM (#23686757)
The same class as Office?

My teachers in highschool knew what Office was and how to use it. I doubt most teachers now have heard the name VS code and don't know why they'd want it.

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by _emacsomancer_ on Monday June 29, 2020 @08:15PM (#23685073)
In 20 years, no-one will remember VScode, but Emacs will still be around.
Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by bjr11 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @07:59PM (#23673045)
You are asking others to make something that you want that they don't want and not giving them anything in exchange (money, time, code). Then saying "ALAS" I wont make these changes myself only complain on the internet about them. These vague wondrous changes will make Emacs a "household name".

1) Who cares about being a household name. Vain goals serve no one 2) You didn't specify one actionable change.

Re:Life is 90% of my use cases for org-mode by na85 on Sunday June 28, 2020 @08:19PM (#23673161)
>You are asking others to make something that you want that they don't want and not giving them anything in exchange (money, time, code).

Please quote where I asked anyone to do anything. I merely explained why emacs is not popular and why in my opinion it will never be.

This is sad to me because I quite like emacs, and if I had the capacity to fork it I would.