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Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by EthanHeilman on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:01PM (#23629539)
All organizations that grow rapidly face an "Alexander bias" where the sort of incentivizes, perspectives and people that allowed them to rapidly capture territory cause them to value capturing new territory even when it is no longer possible or in their organizational interest to do so. Even when organizations identify the problem, evolving from the cult of the new to the cult of incremental improvement is always hard.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by abc_lisper on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:26PM (#23629958)
This may be true, but there have been articles in public since 2010s if not longer, that show general contempt for having clean code and code maintenance, like having clean code is what lesser engineers worry about. I’m saying that thinking seeped into universities where smart kids, who generally imitate the smart professionals in their profession first. Google may not be the only company guilty of it, there are places like Uber where backend code is held by so much duct tape , 3m shares rose up as a result.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by throwawaygler on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:35PM (#23630179)
That doesn't match my experience at all. If anything, Google suffers from the opposite problem: engineering teams spend enormous resources on migrations and rewrites that make their systems cleaner/simpler/more general, but have little or no business value. There are tons of teams that could be making incremental user-facing improvements, but are instead spending their cycles on projects that are mostly about internal development velocity.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by nostrademons on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:24PM (#23631862)
I think it's changed, dramatically. I was there from 09-14 and then just rejoined last week. In 09-10 there was a huge problem of "launch and run" - people would launch, they'd get promoted, then they'd be reassigned to other higher-priority projects to get them launched too, and their previous project would get shut down rather than maintained. Nowadays there seems to be a lot more emphasis on stability and long-term code-health, people are getting rewarded for internal cleanups rather than launches, and many people have multi-year tenures on the same team rather than lots of single-quarter launches.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by foobiekr on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:24PM (#23632661)
are they getting _promoted_ though. successful promo packet for sustaining work would be a very big change.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by iknowpromo on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @04:36PM (#23633535)
I've seen a bunch of successful promo packets for work on code health, system reliability, etc. - including promos to L6.

The "trick" to successful L5 and L6 promos (and above) for this sort of work is to have credible estimates of the actual impact of your work. Way too many engineers spend quarters or years refactoring or rewriting systems, and then go for promo with a case that's basically: "System X was kludgy, crufty, and engineers complained about it. I designed and lead implementation of a clean-up effort, and now people say it's nicer."

That's generally not going to cut it. You might get lucky, or you might get bailed out by a peer reviewer that provides solid data about the impact of your work, but you can't count on this, and you should be doing the legwork yourself.

You need impact estimates. That generally means you need some measurements, although the measurements don't have to be perfect. What metrics measure the pain that the existing system is causing? Some examples might be:

- Average # of hours required to push a release

- Average SWE-days/SWE-quarters/etc. required to develop a representative feature change

- Average monthly user-reported bugs

Spend some time actually measuring this stuff. Write some queries, run an internal survey of the developers on affected teams, etc. Take it seriously. Ideally, do all this before you've actually started work on the cleanup you want to do. Write a proposal doc, get it reviewed by others, and make sure they find your estimates credible. If the numbers are smaller than you expected, reconsider whether the clean-up is worth the time you're considering investing in it.

After you've completed your project, measure again. If your project is amenable to an experiment-style launch, that's ideal, but pre- and post- measurements are fine too. Share the stats - advertise your team's success! Package them up in a nice doc you can link to in your promo case.

"How am I supposed to find the time to do this while I'm doing my normal job?" This is your normal job. The opportunity cost of your time is $XXXk/quarter. The opportunity cost of your team's time is $X million-$XX million/quarter. The single most important thing you can do is make sure that time is being invested in a high value way. In your personal life, you would look for a lot of data before you invested that kind of money - you should be doing the same at work.

In general, as you move up you should expect to spend a higher percentage of your time figuring out what problems you're going to work on. As a result, the fraction of your time that you spend actually designing and implementing the solutions to those problems will decrease, but it's still a net win because you and your team will be focused on tackling the really important problems.

In summary, it's possible to be really successful and quickly move up the ladder by doing "sustaining work". The catch is that you have to be rigorous about choosing the specific "sustaining work" to spend your time on.

Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by dlubarov on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @06:52PM (#23634764)
Another ex-Googler here. This seems like a viable strategy, but it seems rather inefficient for the organization, don't you think? E.g.

> Write some queries, run an internal survey

> Write a proposal doc, get it reviewed by others

Even if one could convincingly claim a causal effect on those noisy metrics, that sounds like quite a bit of overhead. IMO the majority of cleanup or bug fixing work shouldn't require any sort of formal planning or justification. At other companies, we would just go ahead and do the work. Then if an IC's work shows a pattern of code quality improvements, the manager should take notice and make sure it's considered in any promotion decisions.

Moreover, the strategy you mention requires a concerted effort to improve the quality of a particular component in a short period of time. Ideally one should evaluate bugs and quality issues as they arise, and most of them should be fixed promptly. But if a Googler is optimizing for promotions, it seems better to let code rot for months or years, then fix many issues in a short sprint to create a nice dip in the metrics.

Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by amznthrowaway5 on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @08:32PM (#23635481)
These "objective" estimates are usually nonsense, or deceptively only show one side of the story. Not everything can be easily quantified.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by duncanawoods on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @01:52PM (#23631383)
Sounds like a different symptom of the same illness.

The team rushes at the problem, has a honeymoon period where things look nice and progress is fast but... it all then goes to shit. If your reaction is to blame technologies or the previous generation of staff, dump the code and repeat the cycle, you end up in the same place.

Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by mav3rick on Thursday June 25, 2020 @12:04PM (#23642217)
I love the arm chair analysis of every external person here. Code quality is extremely important at Google. That doesn't mean people don't write any features.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by foobiekr on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:23PM (#23632653)
each unit of additional reliability and supportability is probably a bigger impact for google than any given user feature.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by mav3rick on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @07:33PM (#23635072)
Google infra is far from duct tape.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by mav3rick on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @05:28PM (#23634079)
You don't know anything about Google's engineers or internals. If anything, people complain more about an anal attitude towards cleanliness. Talk to Xooglers at FB about code quality vs Google.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by hinkley on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:31PM (#23630069)
One of my employers was spun out twice, after having been acquired years ago. It was sort of a joke to tell people who the owners were. It made no goddamned sense. Sure, we had customers in common, but so do Xerox and people who lease out coffee machines. The toner-flavored coffee jokes practically write themselves.

They just got onto a growth tear and bought a bunch of things they shouldn’t, and eventually rounded up all of the vaguely similar ones and divested.

I wonder sometimes if Google would be better off having a system set up for spinning off ideas that are complementary to their business model but distracting, or not high volume enough. Not every idea has to be a billion dollar idea, and a one time cash infusion to five $200M ideas would be a pretty small opportunity cost for them.

The fact that such ideas are not a direct competitor also achieves another goal of overly large employee pools, which is to choke off the supply of talent to upstarts.

Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by munificent on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @01:48PM (#23631335)
> I wonder sometimes if Google would be better off having a system set up for spinning off ideas that are complementary to their business model but distracting, or not high volume enough.

Is that not what Alphabet is?

Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by hinkley on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:16PM (#23631747)
That's what I was hoping Alphabet would be, but it seems like this bit is still a sticking point:

> or not high volume enough

Kind of a let-down

Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by throwawaygler on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:40PM (#23630284)
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by hinkley on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:44PM (#23630370)
Does “sign up for early access” just mean get sneak previews, or that this is a new thing?

If the latter, then good for them but another thing they should have done ten years ago.

Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by felixgallo on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:18PM (#23629824)
I like the "Alexander bias" term -- is that yours, or are you quoting someone else?
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by cpeterso on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:10PM (#23631665)
What does "Alexander" refer to here?
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by robotresearcher on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @03:23PM (#23632659)
'And Alexander wept, seeing as he had no more worlds to conquer.'

Attributed to Alexander the Great.

https://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2020/03/19/and-alexander...

Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by cercatrova on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @10:08PM (#23636133)
"It is reported that King Alexander the Great, hearing Anaxarchus the philosopher discoursing and maintaining this position: That there were worlds innumerable: fell a-weeping: and when his friends and familiars about him asked what he ailed. Have I not (quoth he) good cause to weep, that being as there are an infinite number of worlds, I am not yet the lord of one?"
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by cercatrova on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @10:09PM (#23636140)
Alex's Alexander the Great, who was great at conquering but not at administrating.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by necheffa on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @02:26PM (#23631893)
Probably Alexander the Great.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by scarface74 on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:35PM (#23630177)
Yet Microsoft, Amazon and Apple continuously diversify. Google still gets most of its profit from ads.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by jethro_tell on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:23PM (#23629907)
How does this apply to all the chat apps? Google chat was great, wouldn't redoing the tech and making apps for all platforms have captured more territory than changing every couple years? When you have network effect, it's just crazy to try to rebuild that network every couple years if the point is to grow.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by recursivecaveat on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:36PM (#23630186)
It's not about capturing marketshare for the company, it's about capturing bullet points for your resume. Working on new stuff is valued much more highly than fixing old stuff, and you naturally move much faster with more impressive sounding accomplishments in the early days of a product.
Re:Google Blew a Ten-Year Lead by bsmith89 on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @12:38PM (#23630245)
I think the premise is that the culture/behaviors/tactics that allowed Google to capture new territory early on are hanging on past their usefulness, not the actual capturing of territory itself. Growing existing products wasn't the important thing before, so _now_ the incentive structure at Google is mis-aligned with capturing territory in that way.