News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by eloff on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:22PM (#23616087)
It is a tactic commonly used as you say. It's also a relevant statistic here, although all race on black violence would have been even better. It still serves to support the point quite clearly that police are not to be feared as much as criminals, even if you're black.

Having said that, a lot of criminal violence happens if you're mixed up in that world or frequenting a bad area as opposed to just random violence. There's something different about police violence where it has that random quality and can affect you anywhere, sometimes just minding your own business.

Plus it's doubly egregious because the police are supposed to protect you, not hurt you. Even before this became an issue, and as a white person, I get nervous with police interactions. You just don't know what kind of mood they're in or how they're interpreting the situation.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by trowawee on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:30PM (#23616231)
It is completely irrelevant. It's like responding to "It's raining today" with "It was sunny last week". At best, it's a non-sequitur, at worst it's an active attempt to distract from the conversation at hand. And it ignores the facts that A) black-on-black crime does not happen at a substantially higher rate than white-on-white crime, B) the explanation for why most crime is intra-racial in a segregated country is pretty straightforwardly obvious, and C) Black people actually are attacked and killed by police at wildly disproportionate rates, which is why the subject of police violence against Black people is a valid topic of conversation, whereas "black-on-black crime" is a pointless or hostile digression.
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:49PM (#23616516)
> It is completely irrelevant

It's irrelevant to the real issue, but not to the upthread claim that blacks view police as the greatest threat. In the latter context, it is not irrelevant to point out that such a view does not seem to be in line with the evidence.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by uoaei on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:57PM (#23616661)
"Blacks view police as the biggest threat" seems to be perfectly in line with what Black people are and have been saying for decades if not centuries.

If only folks would listen to Black voices, they wouldn't be gumming up the conversation with irrelevance.

White on white crime is also much more prevalent than crime across racial boundaries. A priori you are much more likely to be a victim of crime by someone you know or in your immediate community. Because America is so segregated still, the conclusion follows pretty immediately.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by shadowgovt on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:42PM (#23617431)
It's in line with what people have been saying, but as parent observed, it's not in line with risks. But this is nothing new for people in general; we spend way more newspaper inches worrying about terrorism (which kills a fraction of people) than traffic fatalities (which is 8th leading cause of death globally).

This is, of course, as true as it is irrelevant. Because police can be 1/7th as likely to kill black people as non-police, and that's still far, far too many and a completely different category of murder (because the murderers are rarely punished, and are protected by the power of the state). Even if cops were 1/70th as likely to be the murderer of a black person, it's too many.

Some kinds of death are both avoidable and morally reprehensible for a society to allow or condone.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by uoaei on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:50PM (#23617557)
Agreed, the comparison between who kills black folks is irrelevant. The comparison that is relevant here is who police officers kill.

This page is a good summary of the relevant statistics: https://beehivemedia.com/dataviz/when_police_kill_in_black_a...

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by specialist on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @05:10PM (#23620323)
Sure. You're correct. But it's such a frequently deployed concern troll that it's challenging to assume good intent. Like many, pjc50 is just trying to articulate, organize some thoughts on a very tough topic. Does every. single. statement. have. to. be. pendanted. and. relitigated. every. with. the. same. tired. talking. points. every. single. time?
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by eloff on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @02:05PM (#23617781)
You completely missed the point. It's relevant to this thread that blacks should fear the police more than criminal violence. Well sorry, that's not born out by the statistics, so it's an irrational belief.
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by jakelazaroff on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @02:24PM (#23618084)
You are saying "violence", but the statistics cited in this thread are myopically focused on murder. Non–lethal violence, racial profiling, disproportionate sentencing, etc, are all forms of physical and judicial violence that might justify Black people fearing the police more than criminals.
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by eloff on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:47PM (#23619289)
I don't think that's justified, until I see data to the contrary.
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by marcinzm on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @12:47PM (#23616483)
>It still serves to support the point quite clearly that police are not to be feared as much as criminals, even if you're black.

As you point out yourself, it doesn't necessarily if you consider the average black person. The average black person is not a gang member, not a criminal and doesn't hang out with those groups. It may very well be that for such a person the police are a bigger risk than criminals. It's simply that the massively higher violence amongst criminals shifts the overall numbers.

[dead]
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by marcinzm on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:44PM (#23617471)
I have a co-worker, middle class white collar living in a good neighborhood. Walking home with his kid from school. Stopped by police with hands on holsters and told to turn around slowly. Was afraid for his life. Talk to most any black person in the US and they have a similar story.
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by pierrebai on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:53PM (#23617601)
Resisting arrest should not lead to death. There is no urgency to shoot someone who is drunk in the back as he is fleeing when you have his car in your possession.

Polices are using unnecessarily lethal force indiscriminately for offenses and in situations that don't require in the least. They have been getting positive reinforcement by being not prosecuted and being protected by their force and the system in general.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:56PM (#23617654)
> They have been getting positive reinforcement by being not prosecuted and being protected by their force and the system in general.

Also, a number of cases have come out recently of police were disciplined, including dismissals, for reporting or intervening against excessive use of force by other cops, so there is negative reinforcement for good cops as well as positive reinforcement for the bad ones.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by jacques_chester on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:40PM (#23622465)
A nitpick.

"Positive" and "negative" in reinforcement don't mean "good, pleasant, desired" and "bad, unpleasant, not desired". They mean "something was added" and "something was taken away". Better names would be "additive" and "subtractive".

The term for "good, pleasant, desired" is "reinforcement", for "bad, unpleasant, not desired" is punishment.

So:

Positive reinforcement --> Behaviour leads to addition of pleasurable stimulus. Eg. Press button, receive food.

Negative reinforcement --> Behaviour leads to removal of unpleasant stimulus. Eg. Press button, persistent loud noise is muted.

Positive punishment --> Behaviour leads to addition of unpleasant stimulus. Eg. Press button, loud noise begins.

Negative punishment --> Behaviour leads to removal of pleasant stimulus. Eg. Press button, food is taken away.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by marcinzm on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @02:05PM (#23617786)
We’ve also seen the last month that police will lie to cover their backsides. Resisting arrest without video evidence to prove it just means they needed a retroactive excuse.
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by eloff on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @09:29AM (#23627621)
Exactly this. The force used should always match the situation. Deadly force should not be used ever on an unarmed individual. Police should have to face trial if a prosecutor believes a case can be made that the force used was inappropriate - no special protections.
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by eMSF on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @02:50PM (#23618442)
>Resisting arrest should not lead to death

Yes, the world is not perfect in many ways.

That does not remove the logical fallacy of implying that because police are (wrongly, as you say) a mortal threat to those who resist arrests, therefore police are one of the biggest threats (if not the threat) in an average black persons life. The recent two cases do not offer convincing evidence for the latter (although other cases may do so).

Of course this (particular topic) isn't really a place for arguing for an argument's sake. Rather, it's for showing your compassion.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by eloff on Wednesday June 24, 2020 @09:36AM (#23627700)
I think you're correct. They're likely not the biggest threat. That's probably heart disease, cancer, or diabetes in the US. Violence of any kind is way down the list for most people.

I don't think they have to be the biggest threat to acknowledge that the police are out of control and above the law. Fix them, or abolish them and recreate them if they can't be fixed.

This issue goes well beyond racism. Blacks feel it the most, but this problem affects everybody. Nobody wants police that can steal from you (civil forfeiture) or assault or even kill you without sufficient reason or consequences.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by shadowgovt on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:44PM (#23617473)
Societies aren't judged on how they treat their average members of society alone; also how they treat the outliers.

The US treats its outliers poorly. We have the highest rate of incarceration and a disquieting likelihood of police interactions ending in violence against suspects relative to other countries.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:54PM (#23617624)
> Is the black person that gets into deadly altercations with the police an “average” black person?

Sometimes, they are police themselves:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/27/nyregion/27shoot.html?aut...

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by jakelazaroff on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @02:36PM (#23618253)
Not sure what "walking catalogue of locally available illicit substances" is a reference to, as that describes none of the recent police murders AFAIK.

Also FYI, in the case of Rayshard Brooks (the victim who took the officer's Taser), the District Attorney said that the Taser "had already been fired twice and was thus empty and no longer a threat". https://www.chicagotribune.com/nation-world/ct-nw-atlanta-ra...

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by treis on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:03PM (#23618621)
That's misleading to the point of lying. The "already" here means the split second between Brooks firing it at the officer and the officer shooting him.
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by vertex-four on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @08:51PM (#23622575)
I’ll point out, by the way, that a taser is one of these “non-lethal” weapons with which we should be fine with cops firing at groups of protesters indiscriminately. But apparently when someone uses one against a cop it’s worth the immediate death penalty. I wonder what’d happen if a protester shot a cop with a rubber bullet?
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by jakelazaroff on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:20PM (#23618891)
Split second? The officer hadn't even drawn his gun when Brooks fired the Taser. He made the decision to draw his gun in the first place already knowing that the Taser Brooks held was depleted.
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by treis on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @03:36PM (#23619143)
It's on video and that's clearly not true:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnHecVdUysQ

The officer starts reaching for his gun between seconds 4 and 5, Brooks fires the tazer in second 5 and then is shot at the end of second 6.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by jakelazaroff on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:31PM (#23619824)
Are you serious? It's clearly true. The officer's gun remains in its holster until after Brooks fires the Taser — you can tell because his right arm is still vertical. The NYT has a good breakdown: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/us/videos-rayshard-brooks...

And regardless, let's not move the goalposts to consider only the time after Brooks fired the Taser. After all, it's not like that was the first opportunity the officer had to calculate how many shots it had left.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by treis on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @04:48PM (#23620046)
You said:

>He made the decision to draw his gun in the first place already knowing

Which is different from the gun being drawn. You can clearly see the officer pass his tazer from his right to left hand and then reach for his gun prior to the tazer shot.

>And regardless, it's not like the moment that Brooks fired the Taser was the first opportunity the officer had to calculate how many shots it had left.

Having a second potentially valid argument doesn't change the accuracy of the one made.

>The NYTimes has a good breakdown: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/14/us/videos-rayshard-brooks....

Perhaps you should read it again since they agree with me:

>In seconds, Officer Rolfe passes his Taser from his right hand to his left hand, and reaches for his handgun.

>While being chased, and in full stride, Mr. Brooks looks behind him, points the Taser

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by jakelazaroff on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @11:59PM (#23623934)
> You can clearly see the officer pass his tazer from his right to left hand and then reach for his gun prior to the tazer shot.

Reaching for a holstered handgun and deciding to draw it are two separate things.

> Having a second potentially valid argument doesn't change the accuracy of the one made.

I'm making exactly one argument: the officer who killed Rayshard Brooks did so knowing that the Taser in his hand was useless. You've yet to offer any evidence to the contrary.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by geekone on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:52PM (#23617596)
Are you implying Floyd was resisting while he was being suffocated for 10 minutes?
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by eMSF on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @02:34PM (#23618225)
No. Also, among other things you might in bad faith argue that I imply – but I do not – is that even if that was the case, killing him would've been OK.

What I actually implied was that I hardly think these two are very good examples of “average” persons, or “average” black persons, which should be taken into consideration in parent's logic.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by dragonwriter on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @02:08PM (#23617837)
> Are you implying Floyd was resisting while he was being suffocated for 10 minutes?

Especially the 2 minutes after another officer checked for and could not find a pulse.

Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by fzeroracer on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:44PM (#23617470)
You seem to be effectively saying that your average black person is a criminal because they see extrajudicial murder as being a bad thing, which is a remarkably racist thing to argue for. Not to mention your incredibly disingenuous takes on the situations that occurred and the reason why people are angry.
Re:My family saw a police car hit a kid, then I learned how ... by jasonwatkinspdx on Tuesday June 23, 2020 @01:01PM (#23616750)
It's totally irrelevant. Most white people are killed by white people too. It's an effect of de facto segregation in society. Most crime is proximate.